The Bad Guys of AvX?

[gregyo]

And I started reading comics with the X-men. Here take the test...

1. If the Phoenix could restart the mutant race and all it took was killing a newborn human being to absorb its genetic potential, would you be okay with that? Yes/No?

2. If the Phoenix could restart the mutant race and all it took was incinerating Hope alive to release her genetic ability to mimic super-powers as a catalyst, would you be okay with that? Yes/No?

3. If the Phoenix could restart the mutant race and all it took was wiping out a neighboring populated planet to absorb its life energy, would you be okay with that? Yes/No?

Alright. Now...go! <EDIT> Also, keep in mind in all these scenarios, its the current wranglers (be it X-men or Avengers) of the Phoenix agreeing to the terms

Also, my sarcasm is cool. Thank you for noticing. I'm having shirts made up, I'll add you to the distribution list for when they're hot off the presses.

I don't see how these questions are at all relevant to my earlier posts. I think both teams would answer "no" to all of them. The second one isn't even relevant because Hope didn't need to be incinerated for her powers to activate. She just needed to get really really mad.

The only reason I even brought up Avenger hubris is because the "architects" of the event have said that everything in the past few years has been building to this event. I can see how it's true on the X-men side. It's obvious. But on the Avenger side, the only real thing that's been prevalent in their books in the last few years is the public's increasing disapproval with how they operate and their habit of making rash decisions without thinking of the consequences.

[YagamiFire]

Its an elemental power...it needs a host to control it.

Oh, I've got a few:

1) If you could calculate the results of social actions, would you do it to prevent social breakdown? Just remember to do ALL the math.

The math would necessarily have variables. Variables are variable by nature. Therefore, the math could not be ironclad. I don't trust math in regards to people. People are stupid, irrational animals. Iron man was stupid for doing this...as was Reed. Total idiots and it damages their characters badly...Iron Man needed the total BS cop-out of having his brain rebooted...and they've just ignored it with Reed.

2) If you needed a powerhouse on your team, would you invite three mass murderers to do the job?

Absolutely not. They should be incarcerated. Not sure who you're referring to here.

3) If you could enslave super-villains to do your bidding, should you?

Hell no. They should be in jail. Enslaving someone is pretty damn wrong regardless of who they are AND it is going to be totally unreliable.

You'll notice a big difference between our two posts is that I am willing to answer questions and that I am not blindly defending anything. A spade is a spade and I will call it as such. Saying "yeah but Davey picked his nose!" when you get reprimanded for passing notes in class is not an adequate defense of your own behavior...so just because there's a killer and a thief in the room it does not make the thief innocent nor does it make the thief as bad as the killer.

Now...care to actually answer the questions?

[YagamiFire]

I don't see how these questions are at all relevant to my earlier posts. I think both teams would answer "no" to all of them. The second one isn't even relevant because Hope didn't need to be incinerated for her powers to activate. She just needed to get really really mad.

You're missing the point. I am not asking for what the teams answer...I am asking the reader.

How about this...

Would you be okay with the Phoenix restarting the mutant race by physically and mentally violating a child in a way that will potentially leave emotional scars? If that is the only price, are you cool with it? Please though, answer the first questions as well.

[gregyo]

You're missing the point. I am not asking for what the teams answer...I am asking the reader.

How about this...

Would you be okay with the Phoenix restarting the mutant race by physically and mentally violating a child in a way that will potentially leave emotional scars? If that is the only price, are you cool with it? Please though, answer the first questions as well.

I did, I answered no, as I believe both "Phoenix wranglers" would also answer.

[YagamiFire]

I did, I answered no, as I believe both "Phoenix wranglers" would also answer.

By failing to stop the Phoenix the X-men are already okay with it killing a neighboring sentient race...and they want to use its power to restart their race...not hold it accountable or anything else of that sort. Ill-gotten gains. Actually this isn't an entirely fair statement as its less "the X-men" and more Cyke and those in the know. I mean lets face it, they haven't even visibly given a shit about it wiping out a planet or two recently.

So are you okay with a child being violated to restart the mutant race? Remember, its 100% against their will and it may work.

[gregyo]

By failing to stop the Phoenix the X-men are already okay with it killing a neighboring sentient race...and they want to use its power to restart their race...not hold it accountable or anything else of that sort. Ill-gotten gains. Actually this isn't an entirely fair statement as its less "the X-men" and more Cyke and those in the know. I mean lets face it, they haven't even visibly given a shit about it wiping out a planet or two recently.

So are you okay with a child being violated to restart the mutant race? Remember, its 100% against their will and it may work.

Except that isn't true. The X-men aren't "okay" with it killing a planet, they had no say in the matter. That's like saying the Avengers are "okay" with Galactus eating a planet. After all, he's never held accountable is he? Your test is inherently flawed, because it says things about the X-men that just aren't accurate.

As for violating a child, no, I'm not for that.

Let me ask you a question. Would you be willing to murder a child because you heard a rumor that she may end up being possessed in the future and become a threat to the world? Remember, you are almost totally ignorant about the danger in question.

[wayfarejourneyman]

You questions are a straw man, as gregyo has stated, the answer should be no for both teams. A better question would be "why won't the avengers listen to the team that has experience dealing with the phoenix force?" Heck, how about saying, "lets all go to the moon and do this thing there?" Or, "let my buddy thor here float you off into space and you can meet the phoenix half way".

But, as you answered mine, i'll answer yours:

1) No...but i am missing something. Who is the newborn?

2) Yes, if she wants to try. No if she doesn't. Killing her anyway...bad move? Leads to dark phoenix?

3) This is more nebulous. The Phoenix isn't "good" its eaten SUNS because it wanted to. Jean admits that its job is to destroy. Its just that it only destroys things that are not working. So no, i guess, but applying morality to the Phoenix is kinda like applying morality to Galactus...its not gonna work out.

Now, my questions all point to one thing -- the Avengers are not in a place to morally demand anything from the X-Men. They don't have authority on utopia, they don't have moral authority, and they are lacking a ton of info. But, they do have the resources and the power to HELP Hope and the X-Men. They chose to try kidnapping. Is that right?

[YagamiFire]

Except that isn't true. The X-men aren't "okay" with it killing a planet, they had no say in the matter. That's like saying the Avengers are "okay" with Galactus eating a planet. After all, he's never held accountable is he? Your test is inherently flawed, because it says things about the X-men that just aren't accurate.

As for violating a child, no, I'm not for that.

Let me ask you a question. Would you be willing to murder a child because you heard a rumor that she may end up being possessed in the future and become a threat to the world? Remember, you are almost totally ignorant about the danger in question.

Of course not. Though I do find it funny that the "civil rights" based X-men don't believe the black guy from the future but believe the white one without hesitation (that's a joke, by the way).

What is "inherently flawed" is your assessment of the purpose of the questions...they have nothing to do with the X-men and everything to do with the reader's level of acceptance for certain behaviors.

Also Galactus WAS held responsible for his actions and it ended in a BS cop-out ending that he is not beholden to standard morality. This is a bullshit answer and is provably untrue (thanks to some easy examples like Thanos...). When its in the neighborhood the Phoenix should be obliterated...its an abomination.

So follow-up question...if you were a human being on Marvel earth would you be a-okay with the X-men allowing the Phoenix to arrive and doing nothing at all about it if the information you had on hand was that the Phoenix has wiped out entire solar systems (basically for fun), that it has been belligerently insane in the past, and that it literally just killed several billion beings? Oh and they're allowing it to show up because they think it might could possibly restart their race even though the Phoenix has literally never been shown to do anything like that before. Would you, honestly, be totally okay and be not concerned at all for your safety and think the X-men are totally cool for making the decisions they have with your life on the line? Yes? No?

You questions are a straw man, as gregyo has stated, the answer should be no for both teams. A better question would be "why won't the avengers listen to the team that has experience dealing with the phoenix force?" Heck, how about saying, "lets all go to the moon and do this thing there?" Or, "let my buddy thor here float you off into space and you can meet the phoenix half way".

But, as you answered mine, i'll answer yours:

1) No...but i am missing something. Who is the newborn?

Who is what newborn? All your missing is the entire purpose of this. It has very little to do with the X-men...not everything revolves around them (contrary to what some might wish, apparently)

2) Yes, if she wants to try. No if she doesn't. Killing her anyway...bad move? Leads to dark phoenix?

Soo..you are cool with allowing someone (a minor in this case) to incinerate themselves for the express purpose of giving some people super powers?

3) This is more nebulous. The Phoenix isn't "good" its eaten SUNS because it wanted to. Jean admits that its job is to destroy. Its just that it only destroys things that are not working. So no, i guess, but applying morality to the Phoenix is kinda like applying morality to Galactus...its not gonna work out.

Yes or no please. Would you be okay with this happening? Billions dead so some people get sparkly powers (also some get deformed or whatever but screw them they won't be on the team)?

Now, my questions all point to one thing -- the Avengers are not in a place to morally demand anything from the X-Men. They don't have authority on utopia, they don't have moral authority, and they are lacking a ton of info. But, they do have the resources and the power to HELP Hope and the X-Men. They chose to try kidnapping. Is that right?

Your points are laughable. Taking someone into protective custody is, by legal definition, not kidnapping. Hope is a natural born US citizen...Utopia is not a recognized country...no one on Utopia has legal authority to speak for Hope and, in fact, Cyke even shot down letting her voice her own opinion when it was put forth. Point the second...lacking info? The X-men didn't even know the Phoenix was on its way...or that it's been wiping out planets en route. That is FAR more key info than anything else they know. Oh also, keep in mind that part of what they DO know is that when properly influenced the Phoenix can be a doomsday-level event. So their own info doesn't really make one feel more secure, does it?

Hope did not want the Phoenix to bond with her when the time came...the X-men did nothing to try to prevent this from happening at the time...the Avengers did. That tells me all I need to know...the X-men stood by as a rape was happening near-by because they thought the baby would have pretty eyes...the Avengers punched the rapist in the face. Ends do not justify the means...that is super-villain thinking. And yes, I think, unfortunately, Cyke is showing super-villain reasoning in his decision making...as a long long time Cyke fan I think its completely horsecrap, but I can't put blinders on just because I like the character.

I look forward to this all going HORRIBLY wrong and people freaking out over the ending anyone with any knowledge of genre tropes could see coming from a mile away. Play with fire, you get burned...giant, flaming, space-chicken...harness its power huh? Do the math.

[gregyo]

Of course not. Though I do find it funny that the "civil rights" based X-men don't believe the black guy from the future but believe the white one without hesitation (that's a joke, by the way).

What is "inherently flawed" is your assessment of the purpose of the questions...they have nothing to do with the X-men and everything to do with the reader's level of acceptance for certain behaviors.

Also Galactus WAS held responsible for his actions and it ended in a BS cop-out ending that he is not beholden to standard morality. This is a bullshit answer and is provably untrue (thanks to some easy examples like Thanos...). When its in the neighborhood the Phoenix should be obliterated...its an abomination.

So follow-up question...if you were a human being on Marvel earth would you be a-okay with the X-men allowing the Phoenix to arrive and doing nothing at all about it if the information you had on hand was that the Phoenix has wiped out entire solar systems (basically for fun), that it has been belligerently insane in the past, and that it literally just killed several billion beings? Oh and they're allowing it to show up because they think it might could possibly restart their race even though the Phoenix has literally never been shown to do anything like that before. Would you, honestly, be totally okay and be not concerned at all for your safety and think the X-men are totally cool for making the decisions they have with your life on the line? Yes? No?

Dude, Bishop shot Charles Xavier in the head. Civil rights nothing. That's fucked up. It's weird that you're defending him, though. First you say its wrong for a child to be "violated" by the Phoenix, then you defend someone who wanted to murder that very same child. Weird. (i would believe you that it was a joke if I hadn't seen several people on these boards claim that Bishop was right.)

As far as your question goes, no. I wouldn't. I get that the Avengers have good intentions. I really do. But I have the luxury of being a reader. I know that Hope was the first mutant born since reality was altered so no more mutants could be born. I know that once Hope's powers activated, she showed signs of the Phoenix, and then 5 mutants were immediately activated. I know that Hope's story has happened before, with the Phoenix kickstarting evolution on another planet. I know all these things as a reader. You should understand that, given you called somebody "meta-ignorant" on another thread.

As far as the public in the M.U. is concerned, I bet they wouldn't feel safe. They wouldn't feel safe if the Phoenix was coming, the wouldn't feel safe if everything went perfectly and mutants were repowered, because then there would be more mutants, which the public hates. Hell, they don't even feel safe with the Avengers now, as shown by the constant protesting outside Avengers Mansion and Avengers tower.

Also, how can you say the Phoenix is an abomination and not say the same thing about Galactus? Or Silver Surfer? Or Death? It doesn't make any sense. It makes even less sense to say that the X-men condoned the Phoenix killing planets on its way to Earth when in actuality they had no say in the matter.

Edit: never mind, you did answer the question.

[wayfarejourneyman]

Of course not. Though I do find it funny that the "civil rights" based X-men don't believe the black guy from the future but believe the white one without hesitation (that's a joke, by the way).

What is "inherently flawed" is your assessment of the purpose of the questions...they have nothing to do with the X-men and everything to do with the reader's level of acceptance for certain behaviors.

Also Galactus WAS held responsible for his actions and it ended in a BS cop-out ending that he is not beholden to standard morality. This is a bullshit answer and is provably untrue (thanks to some easy examples like Thanos...). When its in the neighborhood the Phoenix should be obliterated...its an abomination.

So follow-up question...if you were a human being on Marvel earth would you be a-okay with the X-men allowing the Phoenix to arrive and doing nothing at all about it if the information you had on hand was that the Phoenix has wiped out entire solar systems (basically for fun), that it has been belligerently insane in the past, and that it literally just killed several billion beings? Oh and they're allowing it to show up because they think it might could possibly restart their race even though the Phoenix has literally never been shown to do anything like that before. Would you, honestly, be totally okay and be not concerned at all for your safety and think the X-men are totally cool for making the decisions they have with your life on the line? Yes? No?



Who is what newborn? All your missing is the entire purpose of this. It has very little to do with the X-men...not everything revolves around them (contrary to what some might wish, apparently)



Soo..you are cool with allowing someone (a minor in this case) to incinerate themselves for the express purpose of giving some people super powers?



Yes or no please. Would you be okay with this happening? Billions dead so some people get sparkly powers (also some get deformed or whatever but screw them they won't be on the team)?



Your points are laughable. Taking someone into protective custody is, by legal definition, not kidnapping. Hope is a natural born US citizen...Utopia is not a recognized country...no one on Utopia has legal authority to speak for Hope and, in fact, Cyke even shot down letting her voice her own opinion when it was put forth. Point the second...lacking info? The X-men didn't even know the Phoenix was on its way...or that it's been wiping out planets en route. That is FAR more key info than anything else they know. Oh also, keep in mind that part of what they DO know is that when properly influenced the Phoenix can be a doomsday-level event. So their own info doesn't really make one feel more secure, does it?

Hope did not want the Phoenix to bond with her when the time came...the X-men did nothing to try to prevent this from happening at the time...the Avengers did. That tells me all I need to know...the X-men stood by as a rape was happening near-by because they thought the baby would have pretty eyes...the Avengers punched the rapist in the face. Ends do not justify the means...that is super-villain thinking. And yes, I think, unfortunately, Cyke is showing super-villain reasoning in his decision making...as a long long time Cyke fan I think its completely horsecrap, but I can't put blinders on just because I like the character.

I look forward to this all going HORRIBLY wrong and people freaking out over the ending anyone with any knowledge of genre tropes could see coming from a mile away. Play with fire, you get burned...giant, flaming, space-chicken...harness its power huh? Do the math.

On who's authority? They are a SOVERIGN NATION! You can't tell those what to do. Its, you know, illegal to try! Thats their authority.

And rape, seriously, you went there? Ok, you are just being silly. Also, when is "killing the victim" the solution to rape?

Honestly, I have to ask at this point, are you conducting some sort of social experiment? Your questions are ignoring clearly established in-universe logic. I mean, you claim to be looking at this at the meta level, which i can relate to (i think the whole arc is mischaracterized trash), but you seem to be ignoring the narrative of everything beyond this event. This is not a moment in time, this story has been going on for what...7 years?

[wayfarejourneyman]

Dude, Bishop shot Charles Xavier in the head. Civil rights nothing. That's fucked up.

As far as your question goes, answer mine, then I'll answer yours.

What he said. Also, try not to use the word "laughable" or "ignorant"

[Lascoden]

YagamiFire, you talk like controlling reality morphing powers is impossible, when we know it's not. Future-Franklin has complete and total control over his powers, to the point where it now seems he will live for trillions of years, and is on par with Galactus. Nate Grey was as powerful as the Dark Phoenix, and he had total control of his powers, to the point where he could travel through the Astral Plane, disperse himself across the planet, and even bring himself back to life by re-assimilating himself. And, Jean and Rachel both gained complete control of their Phoenix powers, with Jean even ascending to the White Hot Room. So, we know that it's possible, as it has all happened before.

[mikekerrIII]

Dude, Bishop shot Charles Xavier in the head. Civil rights nothing. That's fucked up.

they he commits 9,000,000,000 murders. Bishop isn' hated becasuehe is black but because when you go 1500X Godwin you will be hated. Your sanity will be question by the charitable also

And is there any indication that anything bishop was talking about has anything at all to do with what is happening now?

[YagamiFire]

Just throwing this out there...are you reading what I write? Or just arguing to shout down what other people say?

Dude, Bishop shot Charles Xavier in the head. Civil rights nothing. That's fucked up.

I literally wrote that it was a joke. I wrote it. In words. In english. Directly after the joke. Also that was totally an accident, Bishop was just blinded by the glare from Chuck's dome (that is also a joke...if you respond to it seriously, I lose all hope...)

As far as your question goes, answer mine, then I'll answer yours.

...the first three words of my reply to your question were "Of course not." Seriously, are you just screwing with me?

On who's authority? They are a SOVERIGN NATION! You can't tell those what to do. Its, you know, illegal to try! Thats their authority.

If Utopia is a sovereign nation then they have kidnapped Hope...no one gave them legal authority (she's a US citizen) to take her originally. Also they are harboring a criminal that crossed temporal (and probably state) lines with a kidnapped minor. Cable would probably hold up pretty well in prison though.

Also Utopia's status as a sovereign nation is "murky"...quote from Marvel themselves. Also, again, even if they were, it wouldn't support your argument. Hope could request asylum in Utopia but it wouldn't change the fact that she's legally a minor and still a US citizen.

And rape, seriously, you went there? Ok, you are just being silly. Also, when is "killing the victim" the solution to rape?

Rape? Sure, I'll go there. Maybe you missed my holocaust jokes about Magneto (the big cry-baby) in another thread. The Phoenix is putting itself inside of a teenage girl without her consent while she screams "No! I don't want this"...yeah clearly I went there first, huh? Oh also you'll notice that again you aren't addressing the actual situation...you are pointing figures at SOMEONE ELSES actions (Wolverines) which I also don't condone. I merely support attacking the Phoenix.

Honestly, I have to ask at this point, are you conducting some sort of social experiment? Your questions are ignoring clearly established in-universe logic. I mean, you claim to be looking at this at the meta level, which i can relate to (i think the whole arc is mischaracterized trash), but you seem to be ignoring the narrative of everything beyond this event. This is not a moment in time, this story has been going on for what...7 years?

Well we definitely agree that the arc has some heavy mischaracterization (especially since I think Cyke has been getting character-assassinated for a while now..after Tony...and Reed...and etc etc etc)

Also the social experiment is really just observing how far someone will go to keep defending something. The hilarious outcome is going to be when it becomes an "I told you so" situation with the Phoenix going bat-shit and Cyke (or one of the other Phoenix 5) acting like a total villain necessitating their being taken down a peg. The writing is on the wall...watching people clamp their hands over their ears while gouging out their eyes is just hilarious. When the inevitable happens (as it likes to do) I am much looking forward to the teeth-gnashing and reverse-counter-backstep-justifications that will happen as if it will somehow be surprising. Cyke is being written in a stupid, unlikeable way...just because I used to like him and the X-men does not mean I will support that stupidity by arguing that its not stupid.

What he said. Also, try not to use the word "laughable" or "ignorant"

Scroll up to the beginning of my post and you'll see how laughably ignorant your post was. (way to lob that one in)

YagamiFire, you talk like controlling reality morphing powers is impossible, when we know it's not. Future-Franklin has complete and total control over his powers, to the point where it now seems he will live for trillions of years, and is on par with Galactus. Nate Grey was as powerful as the Dark Phoenix, and he had total control of his powers, to the point where he could travel through the Astral Plane, disperse himself across the planet, and even bring himself back to life by re-assimilating himself. And, Jean and Rachel both gained complete control of their Phoenix powers, with Jean even ascending to the White Hot Room. So, we know that it's possible, as it has all happened before.

...holy crap...

Korvak, Thanos, Magus, Jean-effing-Grey, FRANKLIN RICHARDS IN OTHER TIMELINES, Jamie Braddock, Mad Jim Jaspers, Scarlet Witch...

Seriously, do massive reality warping powers generally go hand in hand with complete control or total flipping insanity? Honestly now?

[gregyo]

Just throwing this out there...are you reading what I write? Or just arguing to shout down what other people say?



I literally wrote that it was a joke. I wrote it. In words. In english. Directly after the joke. Also that was totally an accident, Bishop was just blinded by the glare from Chuck's dome (that is also a joke...if you respond to it seriously, I lose all hope...)



...the first three words of my reply to your question were "Of course not." Seriously, are you just screwing with me?



If Utopia is a sovereign nation then they have kidnapped Hope...no one gave them legal authority (she's a US citizen) to take her originally. Also they are harboring a criminal that crossed temporal (and probably state) lines with a kidnapped minor. Cable would probably hold up pretty well in prison though.

Also Utopia's status as a sovereign nation is "murky"...quote from Marvel themselves. Also, again, even if they were, it wouldn't support your argument. Hope could request asylum in Utopia but it wouldn't change the fact that she's legally a minor and still a US citizen.



Rape? Sure, I'll go there. Maybe you missed my holocaust jokes about Magneto (the big cry-baby) in another thread. The Phoenix is putting itself inside of a teenage girl without her consent while she screams "No! I don't want this"...yeah clearly I went there first, huh? Oh also you'll notice that again you aren't addressing the actual situation...you are pointing figures at SOMEONE ELSES actions (Wolverines) which I also don't condone. I merely support attacking the Phoenix.



Well we definitely agree that the arc has some heavy mischaracterization (especially since I think Cyke has been getting character-assassinated for a while now..after Tony...and Reed...and etc etc etc)

Also the social experiment is really just observing how far someone will go to keep defending something. The hilarious outcome is going to be when it becomes an "I told you so" situation with the Phoenix going bat-shit and Cyke (or one of the other Phoenix 5) acting like a total villain necessitating their being taken down a peg. The writing is on the wall...watching people clamp their hands over their ears while gouging out their eyes is just hilarious. When the inevitable happens (as it likes to do) I am much looking forward to the teeth-gnashing and reverse-counter-backstep-justifications that will happen as if it will somehow be surprising. Cyke is being written in a stupid, unlikeable way...just because I used to like him and the X-men does not mean I will support that stupidity by arguing that its not stupid.



Scroll up to the beginning of my post and you'll see how laughably ignorant your post was. (way to lob that one in)



...holy crap...

Korvak, Thanos, Magus, Jean-effing-Grey, FRANKLIN RICHARDS IN OTHER TIMELINES, Jamie Braddock, Mad Jim Jaspers, Scarlet Witch...

Seriously, do massive reality warping powers generally go hand in hand with complete control or total flipping insanity? Honestly now?

I'm not screwing with you. Read my edit. Also, the X-men did not "kidnap" Hope. They rescued Hope. She was either going to be taken and killed by Reavers or freeze to death alone in Alaska.