The Bad Guys of AvX?

[jarrod]

I think CC was originally writing the Phoenix as the end point of Jean's natural mutant ability, rather than as an external cosmic entity. The Dark Phoenix was Jean's libido and hyper-sexual expression perverted by the hedonism imparted by Mastermind and Emma Frost. It was all big and perverted.

Grant Morrison sort of restored the original intent too by defining the Phoenix connection as a mutation itself during his run. It also gels with Death telling Jean her children would also be Phoenix.

I think this probably helps delineate between "real" Phoenix (like Jean, Rachel, Quentin, Hope, etc) and beings who temporarily housed the force and started burning out (like Necrom, Emma, HCT Beast, etc). Cable should be a potential Phoenix too.

[mikekerrIII]

If he was afraid of Rulk or anyone else (I refuse to think he was worried about Hand for even a second.) Emma could read their mind and figure out their true intention. Also He had people he could trust if he felt he could not trust Steve. Hank, Carol and to a lesser degree BP all should have the benefit of the doubt that no harm would come to Hope and that they would hear out any plan and opinions. He never even tries and instead blasts away that was dumb.

Caps true intention is reason enough to blast away at him, Caps intention alone is reason not to trust him. Cap's true intention was to kidnap hope and take her off planet, something that made her less safe.

I doubt that Emma can scan people that are shielded well enough to make them invisible to her

[XPac]

Caps true intention is reason enough to blast away at him, Caps intention alone is reason not to trust him. Cap's true intention was to kidnap hope and take her off planet, something that made her less safe.

Considering that's what Hope ended up doing herself, I'm not sure that part of Steve's plan really sounds all that bad.

[mikekerrIII]

Considering that's what Hope ended up doing herself, I'm not sure that part of Steve's plan really sounds all that bad.

Cap's plan was to keep her away from the PF and them destroy the PF, How is that in any way similar to what Hope is doing? The former is futile and the latter universe destroying, neither have anything to do with Hopes actions

[XPac]

Cap's plan was to keep her away from the PF and them destroy the PF, How is that in any way similar to what Hope is doing? The former is futile and the latter universe destroying, neither have anything to do with Hopes actions

Note that I said "that part of Steve's plan"

So yes, the part of Steve's plan where he takes her off planet is similar to Hope taking herself off planet. If you don't see the similarities there, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

[xheight]

That Cyke didn't have a good plan is also largely irrelevant here because Cap came to Utopia where she was chilling peacefully to take her. If neither side has a concrete, valid plan, and neither side has anything more than wild speculation about who the PF is coming for, and neither side has any concrete evidence that it is actually a danger to Earth, then the most sound decision from the point of view of good and bad is to NOT torment/torture/kidnap/forcibly remove/etc the teenage girl. Otherwise, you're chucking a random girl into a volcano because of naive and ignorant beliefs.

Waaaaaaaaaaa...TF? leaping logic of lazy Laissez-nous faire! Sorry but why act as if they know nothing because they don't know everything ( i.e. omniscience)??? Because at pages in and the concrete evidence listed still is not enough to justify the Avengers intervention to some. I think it is preety clear by now that no amount of reasoning will allow intervention by the Avengers to some posters.

[Lascoden]

Note that I said "that part of Steve's plan"

So yes, the part of Steve's plan where he takes her off planet is similar to Hope taking herself off planet. If you don't see the similarities there, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

It very well could have been part of Scott's as well, for all we know. But I think that the "keeping them separate" part of the plan trumps the other parts, as that is the part that Steve is focused on most. He was still against it even when they were on the moon. It's less "get her offworld" and more "get her as far away as possible".

[Hambone]

It very well could have been part of Scott's as well, for all we know. But I think that the "keeping them separate" part of the plan trumps the other parts, as that is the part that Steve is focused on most. He was still against it even when they were on the moon. It's less "get her offworld" and more "get her as far away as possible".

When Magneto asked Scott what his plan was, Scott's response was "I dunno, I'm making it up as I go." (It was funnier and way cooler when Indiana Jones said it.) The only definites we've seen in AvX is that Scott didn't want Hope to have any choice in the manner, and to keep her away from the Avengers/ keep the Avengers busy. So I don't think Scott had an actual plan prior to the Avengers invading Utopia, and from the conversation he was shown having with Namor, Emma etc. in AvX issue 1, they hadn't even started to prepare Hope for the Phoenix.

[gregyo]

When Magneto asked Scott what his plan was, Scott's response was "I dunno, I'm making it up as I go." (It was funnier and way cooler when Indiana Jones said it.) The only definites we've seen in AvX is that Scott didn't want Hope to have any choice in the manner, and to keep her away from the Avengers/ keep the Avengers busy. So I don't think Scott had an actual plan prior to the Avengers invading Utopia, and from the conversation he was shown having with Namor, Emma etc. in AvX issue 1, they hadn't even started to prepare Hope for the Phoenix.

We must have interpreted that scene differently. What I got was that Scott did have a plan, but it all got screwed up when the Avengers showed up. That's when he had to start making it up as he goes. In short, its safe to say that the guy whose value lies in him always having a plan has a plan.

[mikekerrIII]

Note that I said "that part of Steve's plan"

So yes, the part of Steve's plan where he takes her off planet is similar to Hope taking herself off planet. If you don't see the similarities there, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

So a plan that does the opposite of what Cap intended to do is similar? they both wanted Hope off planet but in opposite directions. Caps plan was to keep her away from the PF.

[celticguy]

Caps true intention is reason enough to blast away at him, Caps intention alone is reason not to trust him. Cap's true intention was to kidnap hope and take her off planet, something that made her less safe.

I doubt that Emma can scan people that are shielded well enough to make them invisible to her

Taking someone into Protective Custody is not kidnapping no matter how many times you say it

[mikekerrIII]

Waaaaaaaaaaa...TF? leaping logic of lazy Laissez-nous faire! Sorry but why act as if they know nothing because they don't know everything ( i.e. omniscience)??? Because at pages in and the concrete evidence listed still is not enough to justify the Avengers intervention to some. I think it is preety clear by now that no amount of reasoning will allow intervention by the Avengers to some posters.

Since the Avengers are clueless and apparently panicked, their intevention is a bad thing.

What justifies their intervention in something they have no idea how to handle, especial with them trying to take charge? The X-men had it covered until the Avengers showed up.

[gregyo]

Taking someone into Protective Custody is not kidnapping no matter how many times you say it

Says the guy who constantly refers to the X-men as killers/murderers/supervillains.

[mikekerrIII]

Taking someone into Protective Custody is not kidnapping no matter how many times you say it

It's only protective custody when the primary object is to PROTECT and the Avengers had other goals. And it is only protective custody when a Court orders it, not whenever some bozo with a badge decides that is what he is going to do

What issue did Cap become a judge in? Just like your imaginary warrant, that never happened

No court order = kidnapping.

[Lascoden]

When Magneto asked Scott what his plan was, Scott's response was "I dunno, I'm making it up as I go." (It was funnier and way cooler when Indiana Jones said it.) The only definites we've seen in AvX is that Scott didn't want Hope to have any choice in the manner, and to keep her away from the Avengers/ keep the Avengers busy. So I don't think Scott had an actual plan prior to the Avengers invading Utopia, and from the conversation he was shown having with Namor, Emma etc. in AvX issue 1, they hadn't even started to prepare Hope for the Phoenix.

You're taking that out of context. That line came up after they had fled Utopia, and were on the run. They were discussing what to do after fleeing. Any plans they had before would have been thrown out the window once the battle with the Avengers had started.