The Bad Guys of AvX?

[Lady_Alternate]

Hope had to convince Wolverine she could handle it. Wolverine stated, from the start, that he needs to kill Hope. Hope's intervention prevented that. Nothing else.

P.S. I would appreciate it if you dropped the "tone of attitude" that comes with your posts to me. I enjoy these debates, but that is all they are... debates about fictional characters that really don't actually effect any of us. So why you are getting so aggressive, so quickly is beyond me? Thank-you.

Oh, I'm not being aggressive, please don't think that I am.

Tired of the same old debates, and occasionally dismissive as a result; yes - very much so.

[mikeb]

True, and I never said it was a happy experience. But, honestly, would you describe yourself as having been kidnapped?

I NEVER mentioned anything abot being kidnapped.I was making a comparison to the stuation the X-Youths are in to when the Courts have to step in to save guard a youth.

[Kieran_Frost]

Well, my personal opinion is that hero vs hero stories are inherently kind of stupid.

Really? See, I love hero vs. hero stories (IF done right). Thunderbolts vs. Underbolts was EPIC!!!!

X-Fans will demand the deaths of any team that defies the will of the X-men. Hell the place the majority of blame on the Avengers for not helping the X-Men. It is the X-Fan way!

I'm an X-fan AND an Avengers fan (just not of the Big Three). And I do think the Avengers, when it comes to the X-men... have never seemed that... helpful. Which makes this story so interesting. VERY frustrating at times, but very interesting too.

I look at this from another perspective.The courts can take children and teens away from their parents or guardian if it is determanned they are being abused or neglected or in a dangerous situation.The children have no say.They may end up in a tempoary shelter until they can be put in foster care.Thousands of youths end up in foster care every year.I was a temperary Ward of the Court from the age of 12 until I was 19,so I know from personal experience.

But the Avengers, Rao and Jeffries are NOT the courts. None of them have actual, LEGAL juristinction over these kids. Hell, since Utopia is another nation... I'm not even sure whether the kids, by "the law of Utopia" need legal guards? In theory, based on the "kids must fight too" philosophy, maybe they count as adults and therefore are their own guardians? I'm not sure about that one, but I thought I would float it out there.

[Lady_Alternate]

I NEVER mentioned anything abot being kidnapped.I was making a comparison to the stuation the X-Youths are in to when the Courts have to step in to save guard a youth.

I didn't claim that you did, dear - I was asking if you, as one who had been through the situation of being made a ward of the court would ever choose to label yourself as "kidnapped".

I'll admit, I was expecting / hoping you'd say "no, of course not", so that it would lend credence to pointing out how inflammatory others using it as a term for this situation would be. x

[Kieran_Frost]

Oh, I'm not being aggressive, please don't think that I am.
Tired of the same old debates, and occasionally dismissive as a result; yes - very much so.

Thank-you. And I agree, upon re-reading, you are 100% right, it wouldn't be kidnapping. BUT I still don't believe the Avengers have an legal authority over the kids. I've only had this debate for the first time, so I find it very interesting. But yes, the "same old debate" does ware you down, agreed.

[Nomads1]

Ah, see I love my characters being "shades of grey." I think the only "pure" character I love is Dust... and even then, she has the capacity for great rage and wrong in her, if she chose to. Doctor Voodoo is pretty pure too, thinking about it. But all my other favourite characters = shades of grey!!!

I'm aware I'm in quite a minority here. Just look at the success of Wolverine and of Storm when she was no longer the isolated weather godess, but became also kind of a bad ass bitch. That's kind of why I don't like too much heroes vs heroes stories. Once or twice they sure can be fun, but, for me, good guys should be good guys, bad guys should be bad guys. To each it's own I say.

MASSIVELY disagree here, I'm afraid. Many times the issues of how this is effecting Scott inside has been explored. Not resolved, I grant you, but explored. A lot of conversations with Emma revolve around this; as do his conflicted emotions over creating X-force.

I have to say then, that it wasn't done well enough. You know what I think would have been the perfect, the reasonable development for Scott? Quitting after Second Comming. He'd won the war. Hope was back and mutants were poping up again. He'd compromised his ideals by creating X-Force, and had lost one of his best friends, Nightcrawler, due to his decisions. Not to mention being estranged with Beast, perhaps his oldest friends. His mission was done. A lot of people weren't happy with him. Scott was never power hungry, logically, he'd have steped down. It would have allowed the character to rest a little bit, it would have created interesting new chemestries (who would have steped up to lead?), it would have been good for everyone. However, that ship has sailed.

A lot of these "kids" aren't actual kids, though. Scott was barely older when he began fighting, being trained by Xavier. Same for Jean. And Iceman.

True. And yet, it has been shown before, that, though greatful to Xavier for training him the way he did, Scott was also a little bit resentful of never having a chance to be a kid. I doubt he'd want the same for other children. In fact, he was one of the loudest protestors of allowing the New Mutants to be placed in the front lines.

It's not Scott's fault Fraction wanted to push him over Storm (similarly it's not Storm's fault way back when Claremont pushed Scott out in favour of her).

Of course not. It's never the character's fault. Characters may have their established personalities, that help the writers take them in whatever direction they see fit. However, ultimately, it's all on the writer's shoulders. He will chose what character to use doing what. I thought Claremont clearly favored Storm over Scott. However, he's probably the best writer Scott ever had, and even when ultimately, he had to push Scott out of the X-Men, it was editorially mandated, so that he'd be free to take part in X-Factor. I even think that Claremont was quite generous explaining later on that Scott's shameful loss to Storm was not incompetence, nor his own fault, but manipulations of the Goblyn Queen. They were very careful not to do serious damage to a character's credibility and reputation in those days. Too bad that's not the current policy.

Peace

[tigerkaya]

I'm an X-fan AND an Avengers fan (just not of the Big Three). And I do think the Avengers, when it comes to the X-men... have never seemed that... helpful. Which makes this story so interesting. VERY frustrating at times, but very interesting too.

Too be fair X-Men are never helpful to Avengers either whenever their was an apocalyptic threat from past events.
That and their whole lets blame the Avengers for not saving Genosha really pissed me off.

[Countgate]

There are good guys in AvX?

[mikeb]

They sure look like bad guys in Legacy.They imply they have information that facalty and students were organising to attack them,yet they have no proof or confirm the source of their information.Kitty wants to confirm things with Logan and Beast,yet Kitty is told they're not available.(convenient,huh?)They basicly have the attitude of guilt by assoiation,guilt by sterotype.

[Lady_Alternate]

But the Avengers, Rao and Jeffries are NOT the courts. None of them have actual, LEGAL juristinction over these kids. Hell, since Utopia is another nation... I'm not even sure whether the kids, by "the law of Utopia" need legal guards? In theory, based on the "kids must fight too" philosophy, maybe they count as adults and therefore are their own guardians? I'm not sure about that one, but I thought I would float it out there.

If you wish to take the analogy this way then...

Utopia is a sovereign nation whose infrastructure has collapsed (quite literally, having seen Magneto's use of buildings in combat) and it's government has fled* after entering into hostilities with it's neighbouring country. Those deemed ultimately responsible for the welfare of the children have abandoned them**, leaving only a handful of local native medical and research staff in a position to care for the children.

These medical staff are approached by representatives of the occupying force and informed that there is a nearby facility where the children's needs can be met and their safety & removal from the conflict can be assured. Already aware of the facility, and left with no other choice, the medical staff take it upon themselves to assume responsibility for the welfare of the children, and to remain with them throughout the conflict. They agree to the plan to take the children to the facility, and they also agree that it is in the best interests of the children to remain there, despite any individual wishes on the part of the children themselves***.

As the infrastructure in Utopia has collapsed, and all representatives of government have fled, any local laws would be suspended and international law would come into effect; meaning that any label or claim to self-determination and adult responsibility the children may have had is also suspended, and the medical staff's assumption of guardians of their welfare would be supported.

So, there you have it - Jeffries and Rao do have a strong case for presently holding legal guardianship over the children, and any complaints over or arguments with the protective custody arrangement should be levelled at them for having made the decision.

*See AvX # 3
**Scott & Emma confirm this to be the case in AvX # 4
***Avengers Academy #29


EDIT - I believe that takes into account all salient points; from who has taken responsibility for the welfare of the kids, where the legal implications lay, and taking the situation as being one where Utopia is a recognised sovereign nation.

[USERNAME TAKEN]

I enjoyed Acts a great deal as well but I think some understanding of literary merit should follow considering events and things that force out some literary elements in favor of others. Scope makes demands on size, time and detail and authors have had to deal with this in many ways from l. Tolstoy to J. Michener. I won't begrudge your taste for smaller events if they deliver secondary characters with depth and motive you feel more closely however it is for a reason that they can even be shown. Civil War attempted something like it with its civilians impacted by the tragedy and we saw that was kicked to bits by those unsympathetic.

What I was trying to address here is that people condemn events for for being too large or not War and Peace and that is just not fair or accurate.

Quoted for truth.

A lot of line wide events that occurred in the past would be savaged if they took place today. However, AVX is better than a lot of older events like Onslaught, Secret Wars, Fear Itself, House of M e.t.c

[Songbird/Diamondback]

If you don't think that this event is trying to make the X-Men look evil and the Avengers look good, you're a moron or in denial.

[mikeb]

I didn't claim that you did, dear - I was asking if you, as one who had been through the situation of being made a ward of the court would ever choose to label yourself as "kidnapped".

I'll admit, I was expecting / hoping you'd say "no, of course not", so that it would lend credence to pointing out how inflammatory others using it as a term for this situation would be. x

No of course not!I was thinking the way Scott and Emma left the X-Youths behind when they abandoned Utopia,the X-Youth's status would be that of refugee's.They are not combatents,even though they may be sympathic to Scott and his cause.

[CaptainMarvell]

I keep hoping for some sort of twist like the Phoenix chasing something, that nobody else can see, that is a huge threat to the universe and even though its destroying all these planets, its the Phoenix, it can bring everything back.

[Hulk_Is]

The Avengers are most definitley not the bad guys here. The Avengers didn't start the brawl, but they will finish what Cyclops started.