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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by [Trigger] View Post
    Oh yes I agree Jay Garrick vs Barry Allen and Barry Allen vs Wally West are different situations.

    I wonder if there will ever be a real new reboot like Golden->Silver with brand new characters to follow around. It's been around 40 years since the silver age characters were introduced.
    Highly unlikely. The Silver Age IS more or less the 'iconic' conception of the DC Universe, at least in the eyes of the powers that be!

    In fact, DC DID try to make a transition of sorts in the 1980's/90's, with Kyle Rayner and Wally West and the whole slew of legacy characters. But by the 2000's they had already started reversing that process and bringing back the Silver Age...not only in the form of characters like Barry and Hal, but also in terms of concepts like the Multiverse.

    Hell, one can argue that as much as the new 52 has erased past continuity, its also brought DC back to the Silver Age in many ways...but with a twist. Once again we have Barry and Hal as the main Flash and GL respectively, JSA once more on E2, Superman once more unmarried etc.

  2. #92
    Veteran Member Lancerman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    Highly unlikely. The Silver Age IS more or less the 'iconic' conception of the DC Universe, at least in the eyes of the powers that be!

    In fact, DC DID try to make a transition of sorts in the 1980's/90's, with Kyle Rayner and Wally West and the whole slew of legacy characters. But by the 2000's they had already started reversing that process and bringing back the Silver Age...not only in the form of characters like Barry and Hal, but also in terms of concepts like the Multiverse.

    Hell, one can argue that as much as the new 52 has erased past continuity, its also brought DC back to the Silver Age in many ways...but with a twist. Once again we have Barry and Hal as the main Flash and GL respectively, JSA once more on E2, Superman once more unmarried etc.
    The thing is, the Silver Age for all intents and purposes was successful and the Golden Age outside of the Trinity was not. Everybody stopped being published and comics were in a lull and the future was uncertain. Then they revamped Flash and Green Lantern and they spearheaded a new boom for DC. The difference was that those characters always remained by in large successful off that. There was never an instance where entire franchises up and died. The transitions of the younger characters was done more for storytelling purposes. But they weren't needed for the concepts to thrive. So the iconic elements of the Silver Age remained as a result. This DC is the evolution of the Silver Age (outside of the big 3).

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneNecromancer View Post
    No.

    Between the huge amount of characters that they'd have to wait years before they could re-introduce (yes, there are missing characters right now but there'd be so many more if otherwise), they'd have to spend every single issue of the first few years being compared to the originals, it honestly wouldn't have appealed to as many, and would've also pissed off some of their biggest writers (Johns, Morrison) who'd be unable to finish the stories they'd been working on before the reboot.
    That's probably the main reason there wasn't a full reboot. Johns and Morrison have been building their GL and Batman storylines for years: pulling the rug out from under them and starting over from zero would probably have led to them quitting DC altogether.

    I would have preferred a full reboot myself.
    Thus do I write the first chapter of my new scripture. And the first verse is "Let it all burn."

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  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lancerman View Post
    The thing is, the Silver Age for all intents and purposes was successful and the Golden Age outside of the Trinity was not. Everybody stopped being published and comics were in a lull and the future was uncertain. Then they revamped Flash and Green Lantern and they spearheaded a new boom for DC. The difference was that those characters always remained by in large successful off that. There was never an instance where entire franchises up and died. The transitions of the younger characters was done more for storytelling purposes. But they weren't needed for the concepts to thrive. So the iconic elements of the Silver Age remained as a result. This DC is the evolution of the Silver Age (outside of the big 3).
    Took the words right out of my mouth!

    Hell, even in the case of Superman, a Golden Age character, its the Silver Age conception of him which looms large in popular consciousness. Supergirl, Krypto the Fortress of Solitude, Brainiac, Kandor...and a LOT of other things originated in the Silver Age, and these are concepts which continue to thrive today. Byrne tried to do away with the Silver Age, but it steadily started creeping back...until, by 2004, DC had decided to just get it back altogether!

    Virtually EVERY Superman animated appearance since the 60's has been influenced largely by the Silver Age Superman mythos (though the DCAU DID incorporate aspects of the Byrne Superman).

    Batman, on the other hand, is the one DC character whose Silver Age era is radioactive to a lot of fans...though Morrison DID bring back a lot of that continuity in a meaningful way. And the 'Brave and the Bold' series DID have its fans!

  5. #95

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    The thing that drove me nuts with the post-COIE DCU was that DC tried to incorporate the pre-COIE history into it's characters, rather than totally reboot everything (which I would have preferred). With the nu-52 DCU, I think they should have scrapped everything previous and started over... even TPTB should have stated this was a new continuity and a reboot and maybe even should have said this was a new Earth that we are focusing on, rather than reboot things here and there and keeping the baby with the bathwater with Batman and GL.

  6. #96
    Veteran Member glennsim's Avatar
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    I think the thinking on post-COIE was "everything happened, unless we reveal something new that contradicts something that happened, in which case it didn't."

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by glennsim View Post
    I think the thinking on post-COIE was "everything happened, unless we reveal something new that contradicts something that happened, in which case it didn't."
    The main purpose of COIE was to get rid of parallel earths and confusing doppelgangers like the E2 Superman, Wonder Woman, Robin et all...and unify ALL their characters in a single streamlined continuity.

    Along the way however, they decided to take advantage of the cosmic nature of the storyline to reboot Superman and Wonder Woman as well. And then, FAR too late, did the same to Hawkman.

    Flashpoint on the other hand occurred with the explicit purpose of rebooting the DCU (more or less!)

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    The main purpose of COIE was to get rid of parallel earths and confusing doppelgangers like the E2 Superman, Wonder Woman, Robin et all...and unify ALL their characters in a single streamlined continuity.

    Along the way however, they decided to take advantage of the cosmic nature of the storyline to reboot Superman and Wonder Woman as well. And then, FAR too late, did the same to Hawkman.

    Flashpoint on the other hand occurred with the explicit purpose of rebooting the DCU (more or less!)
    But there was also a lot of new origins and retcons offered in the post-Crisis world - pretty much any time they wanted to re-tell one, they felt free to do so. Mr. Freeze's origin comes to mind as an example.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by glennsim View Post
    But there was also a lot of new origins and retcons offered in the post-Crisis world - pretty much any time they wanted to re-tell one, they felt free to do so. Mr. Freeze's origin comes to mind as an example.
    True...and many of them were after the fact.

    Basically, DC writers realized that all the shifting timelines/merging realities at the end of COIE provided them with an ideal excuse to revamp any character they wanted. Any continuity errors popped up...it could be blamed on COIE...

  10. #100
    Veteran Member glennsim's Avatar
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    I think it's also worth noting (and I haven't gone back to double-check but IIRC) the ending of Crisis actually just suggests only such changes as might be necessary to integrate the 5 Earths. The Superman we had at the end was effectively the Earth 1 Superman, who was supposed to have had essentially the Earth 1 Superman's history. The Byrne Superman reboot arguably comes out of left field, with it only established later that such reboots were the result of the Crisis.

    Crisis left Wonder Woman devolved into clay, which sorta provided a connection for her to be altered in the new reality.

  11. #101
    Veteran Member Fate's Faith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lancerman View Post
    The thing is, the Silver Age for all intents and purposes was successful and the Golden Age outside of the Trinity was not. Everybody stopped being published and comics were in a lull and the future was uncertain. Then they revamped Flash and Green Lantern and they spearheaded a new boom for DC. The difference was that those characters always remained by in large successful off that. There was never an instance where entire franchises up and died. The transitions of the younger characters was done more for storytelling purposes. But they weren't needed for the concepts to thrive. So the iconic elements of the Silver Age remained as a result. This DC is the evolution of the Silver Age (outside of the big 3).
    I have to agree. And I don't think I'm alone even if someone's started reading in the last 20 years. DC could have rebooted with characters like Wally being the first Flash and Kyle being the first Green Lantern but Barry and Hal have the huge weight of the Silver Age pressuring that they exist as the first. But there are some instances where we hear that a legacy is going to actually move into that position such as Ryan as the first Atom but we haven't seen that as of yet and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they don't go with Ray. Even Dick Grayson maintained his position as the first Robin. Now, is this the powers that be or the audience I have no idea. As a reader, I'm okay with who I thought of as first being first but mostly because those that came after usually have origins dependent on the predecessor. Kyle being the first Green Lantern completely rewrites his origin as well as removing Hal's presence. So far, Ryan could still be the first Atom since Ray's background is much more changed. So I'm not sure if its a bowing to the Silver Age as default because its best loved or because its just cleaner.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fate's Faith View Post
    I have to agree. And I don't think I'm alone even if someone's started reading in the last 20 years. DC could have rebooted with characters like Wally being the first Flash and Kyle being the first Green Lantern but Barry and Hal have the huge weight of the Silver Age pressuring that they exist as the first. But there are some instances where we hear that a legacy is going to actually move into that position such as Ryan as the first Atom but we haven't seen that as of yet and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they don't go with Ray. Even Dick Grayson maintained his position as the first Robin. Now, is this the powers that be or the audience I have no idea. As a reader, I'm okay with who I thought of as first being first but mostly because those that came after usually have origins dependent on the predecessor. Kyle being the first Green Lantern completely rewrites his origin as well as removing Hal's presence. So far, Ryan could still be the first Atom since Ray's background is much more changed. So I'm not sure if its a bowing to the Silver Age as default because its best loved or because its just cleaner.
    Well, in adaptations, DC had tried moving away from the Silver Age, but the more they moved away, the more they moved back TOWARDS it...

    Take the DCAU. Kyle Rayner was established as Green Lantern in S:TAS...but he was essentially Hal Jordan with only a bit of Kyle thrown in. After much speculation, DC revealed that the DCAU Flash was Wally West, but he's an awful lot like Barry in many respects (origin, Central City, villains etc.) And then of course, subsequent shows, like The Batman and Young Justice have featured a League more closely based on the Silver Age version.

    The truth is that even the 'modern' characters are intrinsically linked to the Silver Age mythos. Wally West is essentially a Silver Age character, and the direct successor to the Silver Age Flash. Everything about the GL mythos today originated in the adventures of Hal Jordan. Hell, even though the Carter Hall Hawkman was the primary version of the character in the DCU, the cartoon saw fit to use a version of the Silver Age Hawkgirl instead...and even made an effort to reveal Carter Hall as being 'really' Katar Hol just before the reboot (honestly, I dunno how that stands today!)

  13. #103
    Master of Funk! Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneNecromancer View Post
    ...kind of like an Ultimate Universe with all the old stories just in one book?

    That would be a constant reminder of the old continuity. A lot of people have been complaining about not knowing what continuity matters or whatever, here it would be the case of actually knowing your old stories do exist but they've been squashed into this tiny corner of the DCU. And then of course you'd get people complaining about what character they want not getting enough page-time in this over-sized book. Not to mention that a lot more people would be thinking that the old universe would be coming back since it was still there. Lastly, it'd run the risk of overshadowing the new stuff, the stuff that gets fifty-two comics and is the stuff you're trying to promote.
    1) If publishing one book that incorporates elements from all of DC's past continuities is going to overshadow DC's new stuff, then their new books would have to be pretty under-whelming.

    2) Of course comic fans will complain that their favorite character isn't being shown enough. That's what comic fans do: complain. What matters is whether or not good stories are being told using that 60+ year long backstory and how well a comic like that would sell.

    3) Having a Classic DCU Earth exist within the Multiverse is supposed to be a constant reminder of the old continuities, of which there are many. That's the point. It allows DC to move on to new versions and interpretations while also honoring the legacies the new stories are built upon. It also gives creators and readers an outlet for telling new stories about those older incarnations without it messing up the current DCU.

    Again, I'm talking about ONE book out of 52. Even if it proved to be wildly successful, DC would be wise to only keep it to one main book, with maybe one spin-off if the right creative team with a strong idea came around.

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