Winter Soldier #5 *Spoilers*

[Hrist]

I'm still not sure about that guys. I mean, I see where you're coming from and it does have a degree of merit, but I just don't think that's it. It's too overthought. I would think Brubaker would go for something more straightforward.

I just really think that the intel was simply the location of Red Barbie and he wanted it passed over to Bucky. Maybe Bucky went off the grid, did his own thing, or maybe Sitwell implied he wanted him dead and did a sort of "look away" regarding it, which could be why he got Natasha to give him the message instead.

See, I'm explaining where the ambiguity in the scene came from, and saying that the text is pretty explicit that Sitwell doesn't know the third sleeper is running around free when he gives Natasha the intel about the Red Barbarian. If Brubaker wanted to be straightforward, he could have actually shown exactly what the intel was and left it to the imagination. But I'm not trying to convince you or anyone that the sniper wasn't Bucky, I'm explaining where the confusion is coming from because you asked. I think the way Guice lays out his panels is imminently stylish and contributes a lot to the tone of the book, but it is occasionally difficult to follow. And that's what happened here, we see an appropriately mysterious spooky sniper figure that could easily be Bucky but doesn't have any of the specific visual cues (roboarm, eyemask, WS outfit) that readers are trained to recognize specifically as Bucky. If they'd angled that panel slightly differently, ~all would be revealed~ but they didn't and that happens with comics all the time.

I mean, it's clear that you really want the sniper to have been Bucky. I'm not sure which way I like the story better. Hell, maybe it's a deliberate ambiguity, maybe we're supposed to debate it.

I think, even if we were meant to understand Bucky killed Red Barbarian, that the ambiguity is just an accident/misunderstanding, that his inner monologue is so dissociated from the act is a deliberate choice, and worth commenting on. He's not saying, "I couldn't let this man live, after what he had done." He's saying, "I guess for some people… it falls apart sooner than others." The inability to escape one's past is a huuuuge theme in Brubaker's Captain America work, and that's how that whole monologue is framed. Red Barbarian thinks he can use his money to buy escape from the murky world of espionage, and then the murky world of espionage catches up with him. It's not even that a sniper killed him, it's that his past did. Which is interesting because Bucky's fundamental struggle is navigating his tortured relationship with his own past— and by that logic Bucky is just as doomed as Red Barbarian, in a way. :|a

I read the House of M stuff with Bucky and it struck me as pretty out of character. But it was an AU, so, that was sort of the point. I don't think Bucky's limited to the world of espionage and I think it's a mistake to stick him just in that slot. He's got superheroic tendencies, deep down— his basic M.O. is charging into fights way too big for him and blowing himself up to save the world. I don't think the tragedy of Bucky-as-Captain-America is that he was all wrong for the mantle but tried anyway. The tragedy is that he was right for it, but his Terrible Dark Past keeps him from being the hero he could be. Word got out that he was this communist assassin and so no one would let him be Captain America anymore, despite doing a good job and convincing the hero community he was a worthy successor. And now, obviously, he has to return to this shadow world because the shadow world won't let him operate in the bright colorful one. "No Escape", right? But there's an internal tension there, and a drive to do superhero type stuff, that's just not present in characters like Maria Hill or Nick Fury. And if you wipe out that tension you undercut a lot of what makes his character interesting. Bucky's playing at being James Bond now, but he still wants to save these sleeper guys, not kill them. He has to use the tools of a past he doesn't want to confront the past he doesn't want, but his need to confront that past is kinda his heroic duty. He pretty much said he couldn't have been called Captain America if he didn't take responsibility for all this stuff that's not his fault.

[jackolover]

I read the House of M stuff with Bucky and it struck me as pretty out of character. But it was an AU, so, that was sort of the point. I don't think Bucky's limited to the world of espionage and I think it's a mistake to stick him just in that slot. He's got superheroic tendencies, deep down— his basic M.O. is charging into fights way too big for him and blowing himself up to save the world. I don't think the tragedy of Bucky-as-Captain-America is that he was all wrong for the mantle but tried anyway. The tragedy is that he was right for it, but his Terrible Dark Past keeps him from being the hero he could be. Word got out that he was this communist assassin and so no one would let him be Captain America anymore, despite doing a good job and convincing the hero community he was a worthy successor. And now, obviously, he has to return to this shadow world because the shadow world won't let him operate in the bright colorful one. "No Escape", right? But there's an internal tension there, and a drive to do superhero type stuff, that's just not present in characters like Maria Hill or Nick Fury. And if you wipe out that tension you undercut a lot of what makes his character interesting. Bucky's playing at being James Bond now, but he still wants to save these sleeper guys, not kill them. He has to use the tools of a past he doesn't want to confront the past he doesn't want, but his need to confront that past is kinda his heroic duty. He pretty much said he couldn't have been called Captain America if he didn't take responsibility for all this stuff that's not his fault.

But isn't it great that Brubaker took a character from 1940, and made him into this 2005 version that nobody knew, and Bru had to fill out the body of this kid that became a man in a suspended animation tank, and put him in a place that saw super humans as a threat to humanity. James Barnes stepped out of that tank, and Brubaker put a grey uniform on him, gave him a cybernetic arm, and tried to put a heroic personality into something we have never seen before. This is not that happy go lucky kid in the Simon and Kirby books of the forties. This is reality, and it's growing up in a world where Bucky was a bad guy, yet as Steve Rogers tells us, it is the very thing James hates that he he became. It's like Bucky was in a dream world of death, killing, and espionage, he would never have dreamed for himself. I wonder why he hasn't gone on a rampage to clean out the whole Russian counter Intelligence community for doing this too him? Instead, we get this expose' on a man who isn't vindictive, and knows about the reality of manipulation, and has a maturity to deal with this guilt he feels for himself despite what his past was like. I like that James is going on this journey, and that he can find a place for himself even though he has the guilt of his past. We all have to go through it, and settle in our minds what we've become and be happy what we are. It's just that we get to share in that journey with James Barnes, the American hero, who has a stint at being an American enemy, and now wants to fit into his country as a model citizen again. It's sort of like a religious reawakening from a period of chaos, to a period of stability and contentment.

There are a lot of facets to Bucky's psychology : His training as a commando, his work with the Invaders, his stint as the legendary Winter Soldier, and finally his use as the American Hero Captain America, the very opposite of his previous career. James is tussling with killer, protector, fighter and redeemer. He may again try to be the guy who kills Wanda Maximoff when the time comes around. In another Civil War, Maria Hill and James Barnes may be the only ones in a position to take care of business for government that can't trust super powers anymore, so I see him as trying to fix things when they go wrong. What I liked about his encounter with Doom was that James was comfortable with talking to Victor on the same level as with Namor. They are both (Doom and Namor) older than Bucky, in years of experience, but Bucky had a way of talking with them that related something familiar to them both - Bucky has an authority that calms them both down that I haven't seem in any other character. Spider-Man would just bring out the aggressive side of both Doom and Namor, but Bucky? He has a way of getting passed the bullsh** and not thinking he is any better than they are. In fact, Bucky puts himself in Doom and Namors category, of anti-hero, where there is nothing judgmental. If anybody could be put into a tri-partite with Doom and Namor it is Bucky. As a world view person, Bucky transcends the good and evil that the super heroes tend to work under. Bucky has to be this overlord that sees with eyes devoid of the government and the super heroes, much like Doom and Namor and Fury. Unlike Captain America, that has a role as the super human overseer, who has to control and lead their pursuits, Bucky doesn't have that conviction to put himself in their perfect world of always being right. I like where Bucky finds himself, not as self-assured as to think he can act with the conviction of self-sacrifice being the sole reason for his righteousness, because Winter Soldier is always hanging over his head. But Bucky is the guy who knows the reality of what could go wrong in your life, but you still have to come out of it trying to do what is right, and what is right for one team isn't going to the same for another.

[Hrist]

Oh yeah, I totally agree. He isn't that plucky kid we see in flashbacks, and to some degree we understand now that he never was. But I think his whole character is vastly more interesting because of that plucky kid we see in flashbacks.

[tabo61]

really enjoyed this arc. Doom and Fury picking at one another was great. and the sniper at the end...yeah, i assumed it was Bucky.

I enjoyed Fury and Doom arguing also.

[Prince Of Orphans]

See, I'm explaining where the ambiguity in the scene came from, and saying that the text is pretty explicit that Sitwell doesn't know the third sleeper is running around free when he gives Natasha the intel about the Red Barbarian. If Brubaker wanted to be straightforward, he could have actually shown exactly what the intel was and left it to the imagination. But I'm not trying to convince you or anyone that the sniper wasn't Bucky, I'm explaining where the confusion is coming from because you asked. I think the way Guice lays out his panels is imminently stylish and contributes a lot to the tone of the book, but it is occasionally difficult to follow. And that's what happened here, we see an appropriately mysterious spooky sniper figure that could easily be Bucky but doesn't have any of the specific visual cues (roboarm, eyemask, WS outfit) that readers are trained to recognize specifically as Bucky. If they'd angled that panel slightly differently, ~all would be revealed~ but they didn't and that happens with comics all the time.

I mean, it's clear that you really want the sniper to have been Bucky. I'm not sure which way I like the story better. Hell, maybe it's a deliberate ambiguity, maybe we're supposed to debate it.

I think, even if we were meant to understand Bucky killed Red Barbarian, that the ambiguity is just an accident/misunderstanding, that his inner monologue is so dissociated from the act is a deliberate choice, and worth commenting on. He's not saying, "I couldn't let this man live, after what he had done." He's saying, "I guess for some people… it falls apart sooner than others." The inability to escape one's past is a huuuuge theme in Brubaker's Captain America work, and that's how that whole monologue is framed. Red Barbarian thinks he can use his money to buy escape from the murky world of espionage, and then the murky world of espionage catches up with him. It's not even that a sniper killed him, it's that his past did. Which is interesting because Bucky's fundamental struggle is navigating his tortured relationship with his own past— and by that logic Bucky is just as doomed as Red Barbarian, in a way. :|a

I read the House of M stuff with Bucky and it struck me as pretty out of character. But it was an AU, so, that was sort of the point. I don't think Bucky's limited to the world of espionage and I think it's a mistake to stick him just in that slot. He's got superheroic tendencies, deep down— his basic M.O. is charging into fights way too big for him and blowing himself up to save the world. I don't think the tragedy of Bucky-as-Captain-America is that he was all wrong for the mantle but tried anyway. The tragedy is that he was right for it, but his Terrible Dark Past keeps him from being the hero he could be. Word got out that he was this communist assassin and so no one would let him be Captain America anymore, despite doing a good job and convincing the hero community he was a worthy successor. And now, obviously, he has to return to this shadow world because the shadow world won't let him operate in the bright colorful one. "No Escape", right? But there's an internal tension there, and a drive to do superhero type stuff, that's just not present in characters like Maria Hill or Nick Fury. And if you wipe out that tension you undercut a lot of what makes his character interesting. Bucky's playing at being James Bond now, but he still wants to save these sleeper guys, not kill them. He has to use the tools of a past he doesn't want to confront the past he doesn't want, but his need to confront that past is kinda his heroic duty. He pretty much said he couldn't have been called Captain America if he didn't take responsibility for all this stuff that's not his fault.

I am less wanting it to be Bucky than I am thinking it really is Bucky. I guess in a way i do want it, just to add another layer of complexity to his story, but if it turns out not to be him, then at least it progresses the plotline of the third Zephyr agent. I'm otherwise agreed with pretty much everything else you said.

As for the ambiguity, I just didn't think Guice needed to specify. I thought it obvious, but it's understandable why others think otherwise too, and they could be right. I just thought the dialogue leading up to it was meant to lead to Bucky's moment, at least it seemed that way to me.

[Hrist]

I am less wanting it to be Bucky than I am thinking it really is Bucky. I guess in a way i do want it, just to add another layer of complexity to his story, but if it turns out not to be him, then at least it progresses the plotline of the third Zephyr agent. I'm otherwise agreed with pretty much everything else you said.

As for the ambiguity, I just didn't think Guice needed to specify. I thought it obvious, but it's understandable why others think otherwise too, and they could be right. I just thought the dialogue leading up to it was meant to lead to Bucky's moment, at least it seemed that way to me.

Yeeaaah, it's— I think it probably was Bucky, but it's rare that I feel even a little doubtful about the intent/execution of Brubaker's Captain America stuff. This was a time I was a bit unsure. Part of that is also because I don't see it as an obvious thing for Bucky to do. Believable, maybe, but he hasn't been straight-up sniping people since he got unbrainwashed, he was clearly conflicted about killing the second sleeper agent and moping about that the scene immediately before, and cold blooded killing is still a Big Deal in cape comics. Sooo, for it to be addressed as a downbeat made me pause, rewind, and reconsider. Maybe that was the intended effect :|a

[jackolover]

Oh yeah, I totally agree. He isn't that plucky kid we see in flashbacks, and to some degree we understand now that he never was. But I think his whole character is vastly more interesting because of that plucky kid we see in flashbacks.

Yes. The transition from the kid to what we have now is holding our interest. You couldn't call Bucky/kid innocent by any stretch, but he hadn't made the transition to manhood yet, just the violence part. Somewhere down the line, Bru turned the protege of Captain America into our Winter Soldier. I just wonder how far Bru wants to take the Winter Soldier concept into Bucky Barnes? Does Bru want James to be this brooding legacy of WW11 forever?

[Prince Of Orphans]

Yeeaaah, it's— I think it probably was Bucky, but it's rare that I feel even a little doubtful about the intent/execution of Brubaker's Captain America stuff. This was a time I was a bit unsure. Part of that is also because I don't see it as an obvious thing for Bucky to do. Believable, maybe, but he hasn't been straight-up sniping people since he got unbrainwashed, he was clearly conflicted about killing the second sleeper agent and moping about that the scene immediately before, and cold blooded killing is still a Big Deal in cape comics. Sooo, for it to be addressed as a downbeat made me pause, rewind, and reconsider. Maybe that was the intended effect :|a

I can understand that.

[Runguy]

I didn't check to see if this was mentioned earlier in this thread, but if it wasn't Bucky shooting the Red Barbarian might it have been the third sleeper agent?

[Oni Squirrel]

I didn't check to see if this was mentioned earlier in this thread, but if it wasn't Bucky shooting the Red Barbarian might it have been the third sleeper agent?

That's the assumption. The panel with the sniper really makes it feel more ambiguous. Based on the narrative it fits that it could be Bucky, but the sniper lacks any of his defining features and actually looks different from how Bucky is drawn in the book from what little can be seen at least for me.

[Prince Of Orphans]

That's the assumption. The panel with the sniper really makes it feel more ambiguous. Based on the narrative it fits that it could be Bucky, but the sniper lacks any of his defining features and actually looks different from how Bucky is drawn in the book from what little can be seen at least for me.

Eye colour (despite brown being common) and hair colour (despite brown being common again lol) hair style (from the little we see) match up. And to be fair, Guice does go back and forth a but with how he draws Bucky.

[Hrist]

Eye colour (despite brown being common) and hair colour (despite brown being common again lol) hair style (from the little we see) match up. And to be fair, Guice does go back and forth a but with how he draws Bucky.

Not to mention, multiple inkers on the issue. But from the solicits it looks like the third sleeper could easily have brown hair and brown eyes and a similar hairstyle. (If that guy in the solicits is the third sleeper agent which maybe he's not!)

[Prince Of Orphans]

Not to mention, multiple inkers on the issue. But from the solicits it looks like the third sleeper could easily have brown hair and brown eyes and a similar hairstyle. (If that guy in the solicits is the third sleeper agent which maybe he's not!)

Maybe, but if it is the third sleeper, his hairstyle is an outdated mullet, meaning the strands of hair we see in this issue wouldn't match. Although interior art and the cover tend to differ.

[Hrist]

Maybe, but if it is the third sleeper, his hairstyle is an outdated mullet, meaning the strands of hair we see in this issue wouldn't match. Although interior art and the cover tend to differ.

It's slicked back like Carol D.'s.

[Prince Of Orphans]

It's slicked back like Carol D.'s.

haha I think I'm gonna call the third Zephyr "Mullethead" until I remember his name. And even then I might just still continue.