How bad was pre-Crisis, 1980s DC?

[dan bailey]

His sister, you mean, assuming (as I've decided to, just for purposes of the joke) that you're talking to my fellow Southerner there?

[Slam_Bradley]

More a comment on the original question. It presupposes an answer...and pretty much any answer you give isn't going to be useful without a lot of explanation.

[An Ear In The Fireplace]

I returned to The Flash (I had followed it through most of the 70s, but left when they killed off Iris) when Infantino returned to The Flash and I read the remainder of the run, enjoying all of it. This is just an example of how the surviving comic book culture have been able to impose their interpretation onto the past--so that now it's a given The Trial was bad. I won't go into it here--it's been hashed out before on other forums--but whatever the reasons for why Bates was forced to extend The Trial against his own original plan, the fact is The Trial was a running sub-plot, while other things went on in the book (just like Marvel Comics always had long running sub-plots together with shorter plots). The one unfortunate thing about the Showcase for The Trial is that it leaves out The Flash 338 and 339--the Big Sir story, which was one of my favourite stories from those issues. I'd recommend finding the back issues.

During the early 80s I was either away with the navy or away at university or away travelling around on my own--so I couldn't always get the comics I wanted--but I would still defend most of DC's output at the time. Looking on Mike's Time Machine, given DC's relatively small number of titles at the time (a hangover from the Implosion), I'd say a good three quarters of those titles are worthwhile. On the one hand you had titles that still tried to serve a large audience--the readers who had supported the comic book industry for generations--and on the other hand you had comics that were trying to please the fanboys who were hanging out at those comic book shops...

Action Comics, Adventure Comics, All-Star Squadron, Ambush Bug, Amethyst Princess of Gemworld, Angel Love, Arak Son of Thunder, Arion Lord of Atlantis, Atari Force, Batman, Best of DC Digests, Blackhawk, The Brave and the Bold, Camelot 3000, DC Comics Presents, DC Special Blue Ribbon Digests, Detective Comics, The Flash, Fury of Firestorm, G.I. Combat, Green Lantern, House of Mystery, Jonah Hex, Infinity Inc., Legion of Super-Heroes, 'Mazing Man, Masters of the Universe, Mystery in Space, Nathaniel Dusk, New Adventures of Superboy, New Teen Titans, New Talent Showcase, Omega Men, Phantom Zone, Saga of Swamp Thing, Sgt. Rock, Super Friends, Superman, Superman Family, Thriller, The Warlord, World's Finest Comics.

...in the end DC lost its large market, because of distribution and the demise of mom & pop stores, and they had to re-jig their whole line to fit the specific desires of those elite fanboys. But I think it's admirable that for awhile they tried to serve both markets. And with a character like Superman (if not all of DC's super-heroes and other genre characters) I think the mass market understood the character much better than the elite readers in the shops--which explains why DC has been trying to reinvent Siegel and Shuster's creation for the last three decades.

[dan bailey]

More a comment on the original question. It presupposes an answer...and pretty much any answer you give isn't going to be useful without a lot of explanation.

Oh, I know. Which is why I stressed that I'd decided to treat it otherwise.

[dan bailey]

The one unfortunate thing about the Showcase for The Trial is that it leaves out The Flash 338 and 339--the Big Sir story, which was one of my favourite stories from those issues. I'd recommend finding the back issues.

Thanks for noting that. I've been meaning to go back to the Showcase table of contacts so I can add those to my want list, but kept forgetting because I'm at least as scatterbrained as usual.

Also ...

the Big Sir story

The Giffen-DeMattais-Maguire JLA villain (at least, that's the only context in which I know him)? Always wondered about his beginnings.

[Cei-U!]

Don't worry, Dan (MWG says in an accent just barely tinged with a southern flavor acquired mostly in the last 10 years). The Trial of the Flash is not nearly so bad as it's reputed to be;

No offense, MWG, but having read it within the last six months, I can say with confidence that it's worse than it's purported to be. It bored the shit out of me and Infantino's sloppy art annoyed me. It's no surprise that it killed the title dead.

Cei-U!
I turn thumbs down!

[adam_warlock_2099]

I have read a lot of old DC and post Crisis, but are we talking like right before Crisis came out? Cause in that case I haven't probably read any of the accused material save Batman maybe. It's not that I had any knowledge it was bad, just never got attracted to 80's DC characters. THe biggest DC character I cared about outside Batman is GL, and Kyle has been the only GL that's entertained me.

[Darrell D.]

Now you tell me ... about 10 days after I bought the Showcase Presents collecting that arc.

Aaaaah, doesn't matter. I'd've bought it anyway, if only for a chance to see Infantino back on perhaps his signature character after more than a decade in the artistic wilderness.

It is an awful story, but Infantino inked by Dennis Janke made for some pretty art.

[Slam_Bradley]

It is an awful story, but Infantino inked by Dennis Janke made for some pretty art.

It must have been due to Janke's inking then. I bought the issues of Flash after Infantino's return that had the Dr. Fate back-ups. And the artwork on the Flash feature was awful.

[dan bailey]

It must have been due to Janke's inking then. I bought the issues of Flash after Infantino's return that had the Dr. Fate back-ups. And the artwork on the Flash feature was awful.

How were those backups? I had those issues on my want list for awhile, but I seem to have inadvertently omitted them at some point.

[An Ear In The Fireplace]

It's interesting that with Crisis there were three titles that DC sought to protect--New Teen Titans, Batman, and Green Lantern. All the other DC titles and characters were impacted to a much greater degree. I think the desire to protect Titans, Batman, and GL--all fan favourites--prevented the Crisis from going as far as it could have.

Titans was never really the same after Crisis--Marv and George had given so much to CoIE, that they had nothing left for Titans.

Batman was limping immediately after Crisis--there was a good little period there in the early 80s where the Bat books had a specific direction and some quality work was being done. Once Denny O'Neil took over as editor, the Bat books were directionless with uneven quality. Yes, Frank Miller did his Dark Knight Returns elseworld mini-series--but Dick Giordano had put that in place before O'Neil's return from Marvel. Eventually O'Neil was able to get his act together and put Batman back on track, but it took a few years for that to happen and the 1989 movie had a lot to do with Batman's continued success.

Green Lantern didn't suffer a similar shift in creative continuity right away. The title became Green Lantern Corps and Steve Englehart continued to produce engaging stories. Yet within two years it was done. Ultimately, the struggle to get Green Lantern back on track would lead to the destruction of the Corps, the Guardians, Hal's character and the introduction of a totally different concept in Kyle Rayner.

So it's ironic that these three Crisis-protected titles all suffered a creative depression thanks to the aftermath of Crisis. "The best-laid schemes o' mice an' men gang aft agley."

[Slam_Bradley]

How were those backups? I had those issues on my want list for awhile, but I seem to have inadvertently omitted them at some point.

I don't remember. It's honestly been probably 30 years since I read them. The art by Giffen and Mahlstadt was pretty spiffy. I'm not a huge Marty Pasko fan, but he always did well with Dr. Fate. And then Gerber was involved in the later issues. I should probably re-read them at some point.

[Polar Bear]

More a comment on the original question. It presupposes an answer...and pretty much any answer you give isn't going to be useful without a lot of explanation.

Well, that was kind of the point. The explanations are the fun part.

The provocativeness of the question was deliberate; I wanted a solid number of answers--for which, much thanks!

[dan bailey]

We all look forward to your next such thread -- "Who's the Crankiest Classic Comics Curmudgeon, Cei-U! or dan?"

[Buried Alien]

It's interesting that with Crisis there were three titles that DC sought to protect--New Teen Titans, Batman, and Green Lantern. All the other DC titles and characters were impacted to a much greater degree. I think the desire to protect Titans, Batman, and GL--all fan favourites--prevented the Crisis from going as far as it could have.

The diminished status of the TITANS status aside, it seems little has changed over the past twenty-five years. BATMAN and GL are *still* the amnestied franchises.

Early 1980s DC seriously wasn't *that* dire. It's my personal favorite era of DC history...where I got on board with DC. I thought JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA was going just fine (great, even) until DC decided to mess with it and turn it into JUSTICE LEAGUE DETROIT.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)