Who is more unsympathetic Red Skull or the Joker?

[KamenRaida]

The thing is I don't think there's ever been a sympathetic potrayal of the Red Skull, and while they're few and far between, I'm quite sure there's been a few occassions where the Joker can be very loosely interpreted as sympathetic.

[Guy1]

Joker's backstory sometimes paints him as an ok guy before extreme circumstances drove him insane, leading him to become the Joker.

[Shellhead]

Joker's backstory sometimes paints him as an ok guy before extreme circumstances drove him insane, leading him to become the Joker.

Red Skull...pretty much chose the uber-evil path he walks.

I read a reprint of Red Skull's origin a long time ago in Bring on the Bad Guys, and from what I recall, he was an abused orphan that Hitler brought under his own tutelage as an experiment. The Joker, at least according to The Killing Joke, was a family man who lost his job and turned to crime out of desperation. A freak accident turned him into the Joker and cost him his sanity. Nazi or crazy guy? I find the Red Skull more unsympathetic, especially since all of his actions are very deliberate. The Joker is arguably unable to resist his own worst impulses because he is crazy.

[Holy Spirit]

Red Skull isn't a Nazi.

He's gotten to the point that he makes Nazis look tolerant by comparison.

Super Nazi?

Who is more unsympathetic Red Skull or the Joker?

I'll give Skull the edge if only because it could be argued that the Joker is to crazy to truly know what he's doing...... morally speaking.

[Stigma Rex]

I read a reprint of Red Skull's origin a long time ago in Bring on the Bad Guys, and from what I recall, he was an abused orphan that Hitler brought under his own tutelage as an experiment. The Joker, at least according to The Killing Joke, was a family man who lost his job and turned to crime out of desperation. A freak accident turned him into the Joker and cost him his sanity. Nazi or crazy guy? I find the Red Skull more unsympathetic, especially since all of his actions are very deliberate. The Joker is arguably unable to resist his own worst impulses because he is crazy.

Well the abused orphan, that got brain washed is actually a lot more sympathetic then I thought I could feel for a Nazi for Red Skull's level. Joker, you can also feel a bit of sympathy for seeing as he doesn't have control over his actions due to the insanity. Still I figure they tie for being unsympathatic, and as a reward they both get a bullet to the brain.

[Wjowski]

I feel the need to point out the crossover comic where Joker himself found Red Skull rather repellant.

[Len Ikari145]

I feel the need to point out the crossover comic where Joker himself found Red Skull rather repellant.

Are we talking moralistically or aesthetically?

[GrampaGen]

I feel the need to point out the crossover comic where Joker himself found Red Skull rather repellant.

That was more Joker being a hypocrite, drawing that line at the word 'Nazi'.

Considering that the Clown's standard MO is to gas people to death and given the chance they both reek havoc - without any particular prejudice to specific groups besides their designated heroic counterparts - on the world at large, the repulsion was more semantic and played for laughs.

[KamenRaida]

I feel the need to point out the crossover comic where Joker himself found Red Skull rather repellant.

I'm pretty sure Joker's reasons were more nationalistic if anything. IIRC, his follow up statement went more or less along the lines of, "I may be a psychopath, but I'm an American psychopath."

[MorphyVSFischer]

I'd call it a tie. Yeah you can make an arguement Red Skull has caused more damage but from a purely moral standpoint they are completely irredemable so...

[Stigma Rex]

I feel the need to point out the crossover comic where Joker himself found Red Skull rather repellant.

Here's the scan for those interested

[Sharkerbob]

The Joker. Joker just likes to fuck shit up because "HOORAY! KILLING THINGS!" He's in it because it gets him off, that's all.

As heinous a vision as it is, Red Skull at least strives to achieve an ideal of global unity, where humanity would schluff off the dead weight and exist as a higher grade of being. He at least has a purpose, however twisted it may be.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

The Joker. Joker just likes to fuck shit up because "HOORAY! KILLING THINGS!" He's in it because it gets him off, that's all.

As heinous a vision as it is, Red Skull at least strives to achieve an ideal of global unity, where humanity would schluff off the dead weight and exist as a higher grade of being. He at least has a purpose, however twisted it may be.

I question how much of an idealist the Red Skull really is. The Red Skull has exhibited far too much wanton cruelty and sadism, to be interested in improving the human race at all. It is far more likely that the Red Skull is mad about his unhappy childhood and holds the world responsible for his miserable childhood. Any sort of racism or political ideology on his part, is merely justification to engage in his natural sadistic impulses. The Nazis gave him an outlet for his hate, without them, he would have been a less powerful figure, but not a morally different individual. The Red Skull's motives are somewhat pathetic, making him a sad and contemptible man, but these are not unrealistic motives, some people are that hate filled.

[Sharkerbob]

I question how much of an idealist the Red Skull really is. The Red Skull has exhibited far too much wanton cruelty and sadism, to be interested in improving the human race at all. It is far more likely that the Red Skull is mad about his unhappy childhood and holds the world responsible for his miserable childhood. Any sort of racism or political ideology on his part, is merely justification to engage in his natural sadistic impulses. The Nazis gave him an outlet for his hate, without them, he would have been a less powerful figure, but not a morally different individual. The Red Skull's motives are somewhat pathetic, making him a sad and contemptible man, but these are not unrealistic motives, some people are that hate filled.

Hmm... I'm not as well exposed to the Skull as I am the Joker, so I'll take your word for it.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Hmm... I'm not as well exposed to the Skull as I am the Joker, so I'll take your word for it.

There was a mini series recently about the Red Skull. It dealt with his terrible childhood in post WWI Germany and going from a trouble street youth to the monster he would become as an adult. Its pretty interesting look at how he become such a monster.