Who is more unsympathetic Red Skull or the Joker?

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Who is more unsympathetic Red Skull or the Joker?

[Sharpandpointies]

Red Skull. Though they're both pretty unsympathetic.

The tiny little tipper in the Joker's favour is the time where J'onn used his telepathy to force the Joker sane; the Joker's appalled anguish at his crimes was quite impressive.

[Guy1]

I'd say Draw.

[Sharpandpointies]

I'd say Draw.

I could go with that as well.

[Omegalith]

Red Skull. Though they're both pretty unsympathetic.

The tiny little tipper in the Joker's favour is the time where J'onn used his telepathy to force the Joker sane; the Joker's appalled anguish at his crimes was quite impressive.

Meh, J'onn was rewriting the guy's entire personality there, and it's not all that surprising J'onn's definition of "Sane" would include horror at the Joker's actions.

[Sharpandpointies]

Meh, J'onn was rewriting the guy's entire personality there, and it's not all that surprising J'onn's definition of "Sane" would include horror at the Joker's actions.

Scans? I wasn't aware he was rewriting the whole personality, just driving away the madness.

It was a point of the scene that he couldn't hold it off for more than a minute or so.

[Omegalith]

Scans? I wasn't aware he was rewriting the whole personality, just driving away the madness.

It was a point of the scene that he couldn't hold it off for more than a minute or so.

The mind isn't anywhere near that simplistic, he'll have shoved it towards whatever his own impression of sanity is, given that he's not just excising some invasive psychic presence but rewriting the way the Joker's mind naturally happens to be.

[Sharpandpointies]

The mind isn't anywhere near that simplistic, he'll have shoved it towards whatever his own impression of sanity is, given that he's not just excising some invasive psychic presence but rewriting the way the Joker's mind naturally happens to be.

If J'onn states he's 'holding the Joker's insanity at bay' in the comic, then in my opinion that's exactly what he's doing.

The dude is a planetary-level telepath, and it rather explicitly states in the comic what he's doing. Down to him not being able to hold the craziness back any longer after a certain point.

You may have a different opinion on the matter, and since this isn't a rumble that's cool, but it's not exactly borne up by what's shown and stated in the comic. So I don't actually see you can legitimately argue the point that I'm 'wrong'.

[Omegalith]

If J'onn states he's 'holding the Joker's insanity at bay' in the comic, then in my opinion that's exactly what he's doing.

The dude is a planetary-level telepath, and it rather explicitly states in the comic what he's doing. Down to him not being able to hold the craziness back any longer after a certain point.

You may have a different opinion on the matter, and since this isn't a rumble that's cool, but it's not exactly borne up by what's shown and stated in the comic. So I don't actually see you can legitimately argue the point that I'm 'wrong'.

Yes, but given that the insanity is a complex and inseparable mass of personality traits, I'm not really seeing how this doesn't qualify as him reaching in there and trying to shove out what he thinks of as the "Bad Parts", then failing to make it stick because it's too deeply rooted.

Essentially, there's not really any sort of guarantee "Sanified" Joker has much in common with the unknown guy who went mad to become the Joker in the first place.

[Sharpandpointies]

Yes, but given that the insanity is a complex and inseparable mass of personality traits, I'm not really seeing how this doesn't qualify as him reaching in there and trying to shove out what he thinks of as the "Bad Parts", then failing to make it stick because it's too deeply rooted.

Essentially, there's not really any sort of guarantee "Sanified" Joker has much in common with the unknown guy who went mad to become the Joker in the first place.

And there's no guarantee that sanified Joker isn't.

So you're welcome to your opinion on the matter, but I'm basically going to stick with the simplest explanation - the one the comic presents. J'onn 'holds off' the Joker's madness (because as complicated as madness is, J'onn is a planetary-level telepath who can search the minds of everyone on the planet in seconds looking for a single, specific person, and pick them out of the mass), but can't hold it back for good.

Is it simplistic? Sure. But then, so is Superman picking up a mountain (which he cannot, in real life do, without simply coming away with a couple of handfuls of crushed granite while the mountain just sits there, or boring through it rather than lifting it) or any brick lifting any ginormous weight, characaters bullet-timing through sheer, raw training (or worse, given what some people do), and other stuff that isn't just a matter of 'magic powers' but instead defies all kinds of real world laws.

The comic says 'this is what he does'. J'onn says it himself. I'm cool with that.

If you're not, that's fine, but arguing that it's somehow a 'wrong' interpretation of what's presented is a little odd.

[KurtW95]

Red Skull. He's a freaking Nazi.

[PatchMadripoor]

the Lazarus Pit that resurrected/saved the Joker when the Joker fought Ra's Al Ghul also made him sane for a little while.

Legends of the Dark Knight #145. I'm more sympathetic to him.

Johan.. it's all boy choice. This is who he wants to be.

[The Dog]

Red Skull. He's a freaking Nazi.

Red Skull isn't a Nazi.

He's gotten to the point that he makes Nazis look tolerant by comparison.

[big_adventure]

That's it, Joker's a crazy sociopath, has killed some people, and I'd not live in Gotham City under any circumstances with my wife and kids, but the Skull has killed many more, felt much less regret, and he approaches everything from a much clearer mental state. Joker is effectively a gang leader who occasionally has bumped up to silly cosmic levels due to stupid plots. The Skull has been a global threat since WWII, has definitely killed more, has never once felt regret under any circumstances, and is more likely to impact the life of someone outside of Gotham or the random imaginary state that Gotham is in. I mean, Joker gets somewhat attached to hench-people. Skull tried to have his own daughter killed. Minutes after her birth.

[FalconX2000]

Joker's backstory sometimes paints him as an ok guy before extreme circumstances drove him insane, leading him to become the Joker.

Red Skull...pretty much chose the uber-evil path he walks.