Page 5 of 9 FirstFirst 123456789 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 131
  1. #61
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Southern New Jersey
    Posts
    3,357

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I just know those images are going to put soem folks off, Gael, but to me they show something I have not seen in the books for half a year - happiness. A person is who actually enjoys being who she is and it not just constantly tortured by her own existence.
    <nods> The joy is missing from this book :(

  2. #62
    The Lost
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Institute of War
    Posts
    1,912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WhitOro View Post
    Dear lord. This is my problem right here: I can understand when people say "I don't like this book". There's plenty of things that I don't like but most do. What I can't stand is this attitude "This book is wrong" or "this is not the right thing".
    This has always been the problem. Always. An over inflated sense of entitlement, it's my version is the right Wonder Woman. And we have another one who thinks their interpretation is better, the right one.

    It isn't.

  3. #63
    Heroine Addict Fused's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    2,924

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    <nods> The joy is missing from this book :(
    I'd like to mention that the joy is fairly absent from "The Hiketeia" as well. It's a sad and sobering tale of Wonder Woman. Is it not heralded as a great go-to story for readers?

  4. #64
    Mark Millar Licks Goats BeccaBlast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    291

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I think Shooters point, which I kind of agree with, is she is pretty bland. Or emotionally repressed to a level to rival Bruce Banner. For much of the time she does have emotional outbursts but there is no middle ground. She is either withdrawn and distant or sobbing/beserk.

    I think I would liken it to Azzarello painting a picture of her with all one colour, or just various shades of black...
    Am I missing something? Jim Shooter did not write the blog post you two are quoting -- Colin Smith did, and he's written several literate, well-reasoned posts both praising and complaining about this run.
    Some days a girl wants to ride ponies. Some days a girl wants to punch tanks. Today ... is a tank day.

  5. #65
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Southern New Jersey
    Posts
    3,357

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fused View Post
    I'd like to mention that the joy is fairly absent from "The Hiketeia" as well. It's a sad and sobering tale of Wonder Woman. Is it not heralded as a great go-to story for readers?
    Hiketeia - One shot graphic novel.
    Wonder Woman - Eight months into the comic

    I'm fine with a joyless story, and as I keep saying, I'm trying to be patient with this one. It's just dragging on a bit too long, and from the covers and the solicits, it seems we're going to have at least three more months of joyless, dark story before this finishes.

    However, the fact that this is one story is why I haven't dropped the book yet. I just don't want this whole tone to be considered normal for Diana - it doesn't work for me, personally.

  6. #66
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    2,396

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fused View Post
    I'd like to mention that the joy is fairly absent from "The Hiketeia" as well. It's a sad and sobering tale of Wonder Woman. Is it not heralded as a great go-to story for readers?
    I'm not a large fan of Rucka's run, largely for this reason. Wonder Woman is about ending tragedy -- rising above it, defying the fates, changing the rules of the game so that it is avoided. My one slight hope for the Azzarello run is that he understands this: when he tries to box in Wonder Woman, she should kick down the walls, and that his endgame will show this.
    Superhero comic books only become art to the extent that their banal, unrealistic fantasy and garish styles go too far and become interesting. Attempts to ground them in reality can only ruin them.

  7. #67
    Senior Member WhitOro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    3,686

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    This whole story that Azzarello is writing seems based around Diana suddenly becoming a demi-god. If you leave her original origin intact (made from clay, the gods breathed life into her) the current story as it is written doesn't work. (see Hades telling Hermes to pick one of the offsprings of Zeus - Diana or Zola's baby).
    That's one line of dialogue that would need change. Instead of wanting the son of Zeus, Hades could want Diana for revenge into being tricked. That's it.

    It seems to me that the primary reason he altered the origin of the character is so that he could tell the 'great story' he had in mind. That was how he supposedly approached Didio - not with 'great ideas for Diana' but with a 'great story to tell.'

    This 'great story' is based around a demi-goddess daughter of Zeus and a pregnant woman bearing Zeus's child. It doesn't hold up if Diana isn't Zeus's daughter.
    The most accepted thoery is that Didio had dinner with Azzarello, dropped in a plan he had for WW, and Brian was like "No that sucks".
    "I had a story" is something writers say everytime. In every interview Snyder keeps saying "I had this big story I wanted to tell" (damn owls).

    Quote Originally Posted by BeccaBlast View Post
    Am I missing something? Jim Shooter did not write the blog post you two are quoting -- Colin Smith did, and he's written several literate, well-reasoned posts both praising and complaining about this run.
    Yes, Shooter was brought in the discussion as a joke and thanks to his numerous reviews of the WW comics, we kept talking about him. This "analysis" wasn't wrote by him.

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I think Shooters point, which I kind of agree with, is she is pretty bland. Or emotionally repressed to a level to rival Bruce Banner. For much of the time she does have emotional outbursts but there is no middle ground. She is either withdrawn and distant or sobbing/beserk.

    I think I would liken it to Azzarello painting a picture of her with all one colour, or just various shades of black...
    Brettc what the hell is this?! Weren't you one on the side "Yeah I don't like this overall story, but I like the way Azza writes Wonder Woman".
    What's this thing now that she's BLAND?!



    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    A character with a seventy year published history fortunately cannot be changed over the course of a year by a single writer.
    Actually, yes it can. Post relaunch, Geoff Johns turned the Question from a nihilistic human-detective into an ancient being from the beginning of time.
    Whatever you like it or not, that's an entirely different matter.

    And again, WW from pre to post Flashpoint is the same character. Same attitude, same look at the world, same origins (later revelead to be different but not erased).

    You will learn from fan art. The comic is wrong and the fans are right.
    Fan arts show Superboy and Red Robin having steaming hot homosexual sex. No, fans aren't always right.

    It is the same with Wonder Woman. Again, five times as many people bought the Wonder Woman DVD as bought Azzarello's #1. If he wants to change what people think of when they think Wonder Woman, there are a lot of fans he hasn't sold yet: and ultimately, it's us rather than him that decide.
    He has never said he wanted to chance what people thought of her, he said he wanted to make her overall world more interesting and guess what, to me, he did it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    Wonder Woman is about ending tragedy -- rising above it, defying the fates, changing the rules of the game so that it is avoided.
    An uphill battle that by it's very nature should costantly bring tragedies. There's a name for characters that can't never be tragical and always triumph or win their battles, and it's called Mary Sues.
    Last edited by WhitOro; 05-15-2012 at 07:59 AM.

  8. #68
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    2,396

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WhitOro View Post
    Actually, yes it can. Post relaunch, Geoff Johns turned the Question from a nihilistic human-detective into an ancient being from the beginning of time.
    Whatever you like it or not, that's an entirely different matter.
    The Question's published history sort of invited that treatment, and is somewhat more of a malleable concept. The Question I found most interesting was a girl. If the Question moves from one person and sex to another, some kind of cosmic entity seems plausible, similar to the Spectre.

    Fan arts show Superboy and Red Robin having steaming hot homosexual sex. No, fans aren't always right.
    You sure about that?

    He has never said he wanted to chance what people thought of her, he said he wanted to make her overall world more interesting and guess what, to me, he did it.
    He probably has made the gods more interesting to be sure; though I hope that the next writer that comes along realizes that they've worn out their welcome for a while at any rate. As to Wonder Woman's world? I don't think so.
    Superhero comic books only become art to the extent that their banal, unrealistic fantasy and garish styles go too far and become interesting. Attempts to ground them in reality can only ruin them.

  9. #69
    Heroine Addict Fused's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    2,924

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Hiketeia - One shot graphic novel.
    Wonder Woman - Eight months into the comic

    I'm fine with a joyless story, and as I keep saying, I'm trying to be patient with this one. It's just dragging on a bit too long, and from the covers and the solicits, it seems we're going to have at least three more months of joyless, dark story before this finishes.

    However, the fact that this is one story is why I haven't dropped the book yet. I just don't want this whole tone to be considered normal for Diana - it doesn't work for me, personally.
    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    I'm not a large fan of Rucka's run, largely for this reason. Wonder Woman is about ending tragedy -- rising above it, defying the fates, changing the rules of the game so that it is avoided. My one slight hope for the Azzarello run is that he understands this: when he tries to box in Wonder Woman, she should kick down the walls, and that his endgame will show this.
    That's cool. I'm not calling you guys out, just wondering if you all thought the tone of the two stories were similar. While I'm an Azzarello proponent, I too, like a smiling Diana. I think she'll overcome the doom n' gloom.


  10. #70
    Senior Member WhitOro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    3,686

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    The Question's published history sort of invited that treatment
    No it doesn't.

    and is somewhat more of a malleable concept.
    It's a detective wearing a MASK! How it's turning into a sinner from the Year Zero a logical step!? Are you messing with me?!

    The Question I found most interesting was a girl. If the Question moves from one person and sex to another, some kind of cosmic entity seems plausible, similar to the Spectre.
    It's called "Superhero legacy", the Question didn't changed sex out of nowhere, a new character took the mantle of masked-detective, just like Donna Troy was WW for some issue. Yes, there's a concept behind it, but it's hardly something that allows for interdimensional godly reshaping.

    You sure about that?
    Yes.

    though I hope that the next writer that comes along realizes that they've worn out their welcome for a while at any rate.
    I know what you want from the next writer and I don't approve.

  11. #71
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Southern New Jersey
    Posts
    3,357

    Default

    That's one line of dialogue that would need change. Instead of wanting the son of Zeus, Hades could want Diana for revenge into being tricked. That's it.
    To be honest, we don't know that. We have no idea at this stage of the game how important Diana's parentage is to the story. However, I'm betting it's a key factor - just a hunch though.

    However, you are now talking about changing a key moment/motivation in the story in order to make her parentage not relevant.

    I'm going to wait and see, but again, I still get the impression and feel overall that Azzarello is changing the Amazons, the supporting cast, the origin and the tone to suit the story he wants to tell rather than altering his story to fit the existing characters and world.

  12. #72
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,182

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    If you leave her original origin intact (made from clay, the gods breathed life into her) the current story as it is written doesn't work.
    Some parts wouldn't work, I agree. I think that this is evidence, actually, that the new origin opens new storytelling possibilities. How will her relationships with the gods be different now? What will they ask of her and offer to her that they wouldn't have before? What will her particular role within the pantheon be? Various writers can continue to play around with that.

    But, to WhiteOro's point, I think that the clay statue "origin"--even though it has been revealed to be a "legend" or a lie== is integral to the character as Azzarello is writing. Her mix of introversion (even if you're not necessarily a fan of it) and empathy for the lost and lonely--it all seems to stem from her upbringing as the clay girl, the only different one, the too-perfect princess within a close-knit community. It's a plausible take on how that upbringing would have helped to shape her personality.

  13. #73
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,182

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BeccaBlast View Post
    Am I missing something? Jim Shooter did not write the blog post you two are quoting -- Colin Smith did, and he's written several literate, well-reasoned posts both praising and complaining about this run.
    Thanks for that clarificationm, Becca.

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I think Shooters point, which I kind of agree with, is she is pretty bland.
    That may be Smith's point, but he supports it with highly questionable assertions. No self-deprecating moments? Never jokes? See counterexamples in my post above. Rarely smiles? Well, she smiles more than I would in her circumstances. I realize that Azz could have given her cheerier circumstances, but I think it says a lot about someone that they can maintain a mostly positive attitude in the face of adversity.

    For much of the time she does have emotional outbursts but there is no middle ground. She is either withdrawn and distant or sobbing/beserk.
    Is she having an outburst or being withdrawn when she talks strategy with Hippolyta or spars with Aleka in issue 2, talks with Zola about family in issues 4 or 5, or confronts Poseidon in 5 and Hades in 8?
    Last edited by slvn; 05-15-2012 at 08:50 AM.

  14. #74
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    7,533

    Default

    I think it's the nature of this story that doesnt allow for much smiling. It would be pretty weird if she was happy when all these revelations hit her. But it's the nature of the book as well. It's less Superman and more Swamp Thing or Hellboy, so it's less smiling in the sunshine and more atmospheric gloom. It's just the nature of the book.

    I'd love a second book that becomes the Incorporated to this book's Detective comics, but i'm also fine with this book as it is. In other words i like the variety. But i would like to finally get to see Azz's endgame because i've kinda grown tired of waiting to see what he does with all those untied plot threads. What's up with the Amazons, what's up with Zola's baby, etc.

  15. #75
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Southern New Jersey
    Posts
    3,357

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Some parts wouldn't work, I agree. I think that this is evidence, actually, that the new origin opens new storytelling possibilities. How will her relationships with the gods be different now? What will they ask of her and offer to her that they wouldn't have before? What will her particular role within the pantheon be? Various writers can continue to play around with that.

    But, to WhiteOro's point, I think that the clay statue "origin"--even though it has been revealed to be a "legend" or a lie== is integral to the character as Azzarello is writing. Her mix of introversion (even if you're not necessarily a fan of it) and empathy for the lost and lonely--it all seems to stem from her upbringing as the clay girl, the only different one, the too-perfect princess within a close-knit community. It's a plausible take on how that upbringing would have helped to shape her personality.
    I agree that it opens up more stories...

    But so would making Superman the product of a top secret genetics lab, or having Bruce Wayne's father be the original Batman who trained as raised his son as a successor.

    Making a major change to fundamental aspects of just about any character can open up more story possibilities, but you don't see DC doing this to their major characters. I'm still of the firm belief that one of the things that makes Batman and Superman so popular (besides their gender ;) ) is the consistency in their origins, supporting cast and environment.

    Superman was from Krypton, rocketed to Earth in a ship to escape an exploding planet, raised by the Kents in Smallville, became a mild-mannered reporter in Metropolis at the Daily Planet and works with Lois Lane, Jimmy Olsen and Perry White.

    Batman became a costumed crime fighter to protect Gotham and avenge the murder of his parents. He was raised in stately Wayne Manor by a kindly old Butler named Alfred, took Dick Grayson in as his ward, and works alongside Commissioner Gordon.

    There are fundamentals to a character that the average non-comic reader probably knows some or all of, yet they keep changing this for Wonder Woman.

    I just find it kind of disheartening.

    And yeah, I'm not crazy about the total change from 'beloved daughter' to 'lost and lonely princess.' I just think 'lost and lonely' has been done to death <shrug>

    I can respect that there are people who didn't like the old version and who are enjoying the new version. I just think those who loved the old version and aren't too fond of Azzarello's take deserve consideration as well.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •