Have we forgotten that Kaine is not a decent human being?

[Darthfury78]

I like the idea of Kaine finding his own path away from Peter Parker. I would be cool to see this continue. I certainly do not want to see Kaine going back to his former state as a degenerate flawed clone of the past because that story has been played out already. Since he's cured from the degeneration that caused him to be insane, I believe that the stories with Kaine going forward will be fun to read. In addition, I would love to see Moondragon make a guest appearance in the future fightling alongside Kaine against their common enemies.

[Xenon]

#1 Of course, but it's not much of a forum thread if we're not going to discuss anything. End of the day no one can do anything significant. But We make topics to discuss things.

#2 Then you read it wrong? Now, mind you, I don't think that's what the book is really trying to suggest, anyway. The book still blames Kaine for his actions, it's just there's a mitigating caveat. But I'm not sure what else to put here. You interpreted the book one way. A later book revealed that interpretation is incorrect. That happens some times. It might be a cop out from your perspective, but that's just the way things work out sometimes.

#3 Sure, you're right about Marvel's motivations, but....so? Regardless of the behind the scenes reason, the in-book reason remains the same and uncontroverted. You can like it better a different way, you can find that excuse insufficient, you can think the direction is a mistake. But it's still the way it is. It's not a matter of opinion anymore. =\

[preppistonpav]

I like the idea of Kaine finding his own path away from Peter Parker. I would be cool to see this continue. I certainly do not want to see Kaine going back to his former state as a degenerate flawed clone of the past because that story has been played out already. Since he's cured from the degeneration that caused him to be insane, I believe that the stories with Kaine going forward will be fun to read.

Definitely agree with most of this, DarthFury; certainly the best parts of the Spider-Clone stories are when we get to see nature versus nurture at work. However, I do disagree that Kaine's "former state" is played out. I'm really enjoying his redemption, but I think the only thing more interesting than that would be to see him come close to achieving redemption in some form, only to find himself once again degenerating. Imagine what that would do the guy! What stories could be told about that!

-Pav, who would point out that we rarely got to see Kaine dealing with the degeneration at its earliest stages...

[classicgmer]

#1 Of course, but it's not much of a forum thread if we're not going to discuss anything. End of the day no one can do anything significant. But We make topics to discuss things.

#2 Then you read it wrong? Now, mind you, I don't think that's what the book is really trying to suggest, anyway. The book still blames Kaine for his actions, it's just there's a mitigating caveat. But I'm not sure what else to put here. You interpreted the book one way. A later book revealed that interpretation is incorrect. That happens some times. It might be a cop out from your perspective, but that's just the way things work out sometimes.

#3 Sure, you're right about Marvel's motivations, but....so? Regardless of the behind the scenes reason, the in-book reason remains the same and uncontroverted. You can like it better a different way, you can find that excuse insufficient, you can think the direction is a mistake. But it's still the way it is. It's not a matter of opinion anymore. =\

It's not sufficient enough for them to simply out of knowwhere say that his mental state had deteriorated so badly that his every action was influenced by that deterioration, what they're now saying needs to be backed up by what was shown previously & to me thats not backed up sufficiently by his past appearances.


You mentioned earlier that because of the degeneration affecting his mind he was quicker to anger right? Well guess what the degeneration is & his head is clear gone & he's still pretty damn quick to anger....You think that just maybe that might be just because he developed a short fuse because he was frustrated with his condition Oh wait of course you don't the only possible answer is that he couldn't think straight cause he was that much of a basketcase.


I mentioned in Grim Hunt were he wanted Peter to run & just abandon everyone involved in the entire ordeal as an example of him being selfish (at that moment in the story anyhow) & Peter chasitized him for it...Agian didn't seem like a crazy man who couldn't think straight to me BUT rather a selfish prick who for the most part though only of himself (I say mostly cause obviously he's had investment in Peter's life turning out ok at some points) because he had a selfish outlook & a survivalists attitude do to what he had been put through in life.....My point here is that it doesn't require somebody being severely mentally ill to be a selfish self-serving ass that for the most part only thinks of whats important to him & thats not how it read to me.


I'm not saying the guy wasn't mentally ill to a degree I'm simply arguing agianst the severity of it agianst people who want to argue he had no choice but to do the all the crap he did because he was mentally ill....The guy wasn't that severely damaged & if you're gonna argue agian that Marvel is now saying that he always was that messed up to the point where he couldn't control his actions then we really don't have a whole lot left to discuss.

If you've read/reflected back through the issues & decided that "Wow Kaine really was that much of basketcase" then thats cool BUT just blindly agreeing with what Marvel is saying now without referencing anything thats come before to make your decision is pretty silly to me...Bottom line to me is that the Clone Saga failed to display the severity of mental illness that Marvel is now saying Kaine has always had to the point where it controlled his every action.

[utukkuxul]

If you've read/reflected back through the issues & decided that "Wow Kaine really was that much of basketcase" then thats cool BUT just blindly agreeing with what Marvel is saying now without referencing anything thats come before to make your decision is pretty silly to me...Bottom line to me is that the Clone Saga failed to display the severity of mental illness that Marvel is now saying Kaine has always had to the point where it controlled his every action.

Seeing as Marvel is the publisher and decides what happens and what happened behind the scenes, our only choice is to "blindly agree" with their claims. Might as well write a letter to George Lucas and tell him we don't believe that Darth Vader was Luke Skywalker's father because he didn't adequately drop enough clues in the first film to lead us to that conclusion.

[classicgmer]

Seeing as Marvel is the publisher and decides what happens and what happened behind the scenes, our only choice is to "blindly agree" with their claims. Might as well write a letter to George Lucas and tell him we don't believe that Darth Vader was Luke Skywalker's father because he didn't adequately drop enough clues in the first film to lead us to that conclusion.

Not really another option is to call them out on their bs.. Anyone in here follow the Avengers? Remember when Bendis had Dr. Strange say there's no such thing as Chaos Magic? It was bs the moment Bendis wrote it & it stayed bs until that nonsense was corrected in Mighty Avengers (and yes I know who the author of Mighty Avengers was) People didn't have to wait for Marvel to officially say "Yeah there's always been Chaos Magic" to recognize what Benids had Strange utter was, is and will always be inaccurate.

[Darthfury78]

Definitely agree with most of this, DarthFury; certainly the best parts of the Spider-Clone stories are when we get to see nature versus nurture at work. However, I do disagree that Kaine's "former state" is played out. I'm really enjoying his redemption, but I think the only thing more interesting than that would be to see him come close to achieving redemption in some form, only to find himself once again degenerating. Imagine what that would do the guy! What stories could be told about that!

-Pav, who would point out that we rarely got to see Kaine dealing with the degeneration at its earliest stages...

Yeah. But that part of the story could be told in a flashback story arc where we see the degeneration played out when he was created by the Jackel. Besides, he cured of that. It's like saying that Peter Parker should degenerate back into the Man-Spider. Seeing those things over and over gets boring. I say let's enjoy the current adventures of Kaine as a physically cured clone who is trying to find a balance on curing the mental scars of his past deeds.

[Xenon]

It's not sufficient enough for them to simply out of knowwhere say that his mental state had deteriorated so badly that his every action was influenced by that deterioration, what they're now saying needs to be backed up by what was shown previously & to me thats not backed up sufficiently by his past appearances.


You mentioned earlier that because of the degeneration affecting his mind he was quicker to anger right? Well guess what the degeneration is & his head is clear gone & he's still pretty damn quick to anger....You think that just maybe that might be just because he developed a short fuse because he was frustrated with his condition Oh wait of course you don't the only possible answer is that he couldn't think straight cause he was that much of a basketcase.


I mentioned in Grim Hunt were he wanted Peter to run & just abandon everyone involved in the entire ordeal as an example of him being selfish (at that moment in the story anyhow) & Peter chasitized him for it...Agian didn't seem like a crazy man who couldn't think straight to me BUT rather a selfish prick who for the most part though only of himself (I say mostly cause obviously he's had investment in Peter's life turning out ok at some points) because he had a selfish outlook & a survivalists attitude do to what he had been put through in life.....My point here is that it doesn't require somebody being severely mentally ill to be a selfish self-serving ass that for the most part only thinks of whats important to him & thats not how it read to me.


I'm not saying the guy wasn't mentally ill to a degree I'm simply arguing agianst the severity of it agianst people who want to argue he had no choice but to do the all the crap he did because he was mentally ill....The guy wasn't that severely damaged & if you're gonna argue agian that Marvel is now saying that he always was that messed up to the point where he couldn't control his actions then we really don't have a whole lot left to discuss.

If you've read/reflected back through the issues & decided that "Wow Kaine really was that much of basketcase" then thats cool BUT just blindly agreeing with what Marvel is saying now without referencing anything thats come before to make your decision is pretty silly to me...Bottom line to me is that the Clone Saga failed to display the severity of mental illness that Marvel is now saying Kaine has always had to the point where it controlled his every action.

Now this, this is good. Unfortunately I'm not the best person to really argue this with you further, since I'm just now getting to 1994. I just wanted you to step up your game. =p

What I WILL say is that underlying and subconscious motivations and mental illness are both very difficult things to properly convey. They're the type of thing that you don't even know you're doing when you're doing it, let alone are able to convey that motivations to other people. And to me, the fact that he's quick to anger now only fits in better for me, since if someone was already a sourpuss even under normal circumstances, you can imagine how bad he could get under constant pain (though there are also arguments that his current demeanor is just a result of past events and also not his natural condition, but meh). But yeah, that's the trick of the subconscious motivation. There's little evidence of it and hence little to contradict it.

[Trallis]

Now don't get me wrong I love the series but we do know that we're all cheering for a not so great human being right Guy has murdered & made peoples lives living hells before & all on account that he was dealt a very bad hand in life to start off with.....Yeah his mind was supposedly warped because of the degeneration (agree to disagree on that) BUT I do belive he had enough control of his mental faculties to know right from wrong and more often then not he chose to do wrong.



In your eyes is Kaine redeemable? To me I don't really think so BUT it will be fun/entertaining to watch him try

Anyone is redeemable. If Adolf Hitler had lived, and later understood how horrible his crimes against humanity were, and become a good person, he'd still have to do his time, but that doesn't mean that he can't redeem himself by becoming a good person. For me all a person has to do to change is show that they truly do care about all other living things, and have empathy for others. Don't take this as me saying Hitler may have redeemed himself had he lived. I'm pretty sure he was evil to the bone. Also, don't think I feel that people who have redeemed themselves should be pardoned for their crimes.

But Kaine has no known criminal record, so if he chooses to fully become a true hero for the right reasons, and turns himself in for his crimes and uses the defense of insanity, he will have redeemed himself in my eyes.

[DV1Band]

Anyone is redeemable. If Adolf Hitler had lived, and later understood how horrible his crimes against humanity were, and become a good person, he'd still have to do his time, but that doesn't mean that he can't redeem himself by becoming a good person. For me all a person has to do to change is show that they truly do care about all other living things, and have empathy for others. Don't take this as me saying Hitler may have redeemed himself had he lived. I'm pretty sure he was evil to the bone. Also, don't think I feel that people who have redeemed themselves should be pardoned for their crimes.

But Kaine has no known criminal record, so if he chooses to fully become a true hero for the right reasons, and turns himself in for his crimes and uses the defense of insanity, he will have redeemed himself in my eyes.

Elaborating on this further: what if Kaine became one of the Thunderbolts? That would be a great step forward...

[Kevin Nichols]

I never liked Kaine. I HATED the idea of making him into Scarlet Spider. 'Scarlet Spider' is probably my second favorite book coming out right now (right behind 'Daredevil'). It's just a terrific read, and it seems to me that Kaine isn't trying to use the degeneration as a cop-out for anything. He is trying to make himself into a better person than he was. I don't know if he'll ultimately succeed, but I think he's a MUCH better character than he was.

Was the degeneration wholly responsible for his actions in the Clone Saga days? The answer is indeterminable. We can take it as fact that it was at least a contributing factor since it was stated as much, but we'll never know if it was completely responsible. To use a real world example, look at the recent suicide of NFL-great Junior Seau. It is widely speculated (even accepted) that head injuries he sustained during his career played a part in his suicide. How much of a part? There's just no way to tell.

Bottom line to me is that the Clone Saga failed...

I do love this though. I may put it in my signature!