Have we forgotten that Kaine is not a decent human being?

[thecrimson]

How about we put it in more simple terms:

Let's say you were in pain ALL THE TIME.... Imagine if you multiplied that pain by a million. Would you be able to concentrate on anything but staying alive and/or being resentful of those that are ok? I'm not saying that Kane is justified, but you can see that he's sickened by what he's done. That kind of pain would drive anyone insane in my opinion...

Quoted for truth.

[classicgmer]

How about we put it in more simple terms:

Let's say you were in pain ALL THE TIME.... Imagine if you multiplied that pain by a million. Would you be able to concentrate on anything but staying alive and/or being resentful of those that are ok? I'm not saying that Kane is justified, but you can see that he's sickened by what he's done. That kind of pain would drive anyone insane in my opinion...

There are plenty of people in this world who are afflicted with some type of disease/condition that will cause them all kinds of horrible, debilitating pain from dusk till dawn on a physical, mental or emotional level (or a combination of the three) who aren't because of their suffering driven to insanity to treat others like crap.


Agian I say that Kaine did not have the strength of character (through no fault of his own) because of how he was abused by the Jackal to handle the burden of degeneration....If the Jackal hadn't abused him & tried to kill him imho there's a very strong possibility Kaine would've coped with his disease on a mental & emotional level much better then he did.


Sometimes you have to have strength of character to deal with the crap that life can throw your way & because he did not have that it made it much easier for Kaine to treat folks like Ben Reilly & Elizabeth Tyne the way that he did. (those two among others)

[TheGreen1]

There's room for debate. Most of the current Scarlet Spider run so far is Kaine basically recognizing and admitting that he was a monster, that he did unforgivable things to people who didn't deserve it (Ben Reilly and Janine Godbe/Elizabeth Tyne specifically) because he blamed them for his own mess of a life and used the fact that he was living on "borrowed time" to not think about the harm he was doing others. As of the five issues of Scarlet Spider that have been released so far, Kaine knows he was a bad man, he believes he is still a bad man, but he is trying, despite all his instincts to the contrary, to be something better than he once was now that he's been given a new lease on life. At the same time, he's trying to outrun his past and anyone that might recognize him for who he used to be, which is why he fled New York for Texas and intended to go all the way to Mexico before events and his newfound conscience got the better of him. Still, if the encounter with the Assassins' Guild in issue 4 was anything to go by, he's got a lot of work to do before he can be even half the man either Peter Parker or Ben Reilly were, and maybe he'll never quite get there, but he is at least trying his damnedest to be a better man than he used to be, and watching that struggle is compelling enough to keep me reading --- and buying.

This has been one of the best posts I've read in a long time. You said everything I wanted to say with the eloquence and conviction that I wish I could muster up.

[Kymeric]

I think you would be suprised if you could see all the horrible things all the seemingly normal people around you have done. The little old lady next door who drowned her baby, the homeless vet on the street who shot some kids in vietnam, the church deacon who drove drunk and hit a jogger in the country and kept on driving.

There are very few innocent people in the world.

[refrax5]

Kaine has always had good qualities. He originally poured his heart and soul into giving his clone 'brother' the life he could never have. Of course, the flipside is that he tortured Ben Reilly to no end.

I think Scarlet Spider reads like the logical continuation of his story...and I went in very skeptical. But rest assured that Yost has the highest respect for Lost Years and Redemption, which I see as Kaine's defining stories.

Exactly. Even back then, he showed many signs of humanity. And yes, during the Clone Saga, it was implied more than once that the degeneration had driven him insane. I'm not saying he has no responsibility for his actions whatsoever, but I think he deserves some slack because he was clearly not in his right mind and his backstory pretty much assured that he would never have much of a chance to be much more than a crazy person. It was never entirely clear in the old comics if Kaine was mad from the degeneration. It was hinted that it was and nothing ever really contradicted it. And that's the nature of comics. Added elements come in over time or certain stories are explained after the fact, etc. It's kind of like saying Magneto's holocaust background is BS and doesn't count because it wasn't there originally.

And like I said, it doesn't really matter. What matters is that he had an epiphany and is doing all he can to be a better person and atone for his mistakes. Part of the whole premise of the story is that this is a guy with terrible sins that has a second chance and is trying to atone. I think that, in and of itself, is admirable. I personally believe people can change in real life and that's doubly so in comics. Like I said....Wolverine and Red Hulk are Avengers. It's not like having an ugly past or blood on your hands precludes you from becoming a superhero later on.

[DV1Band]

I agree. I know that he's a clone of Peter, but it's only physical. He's his own man, who just happened to share the same dna as someone else. I don't think that it's right to compare the two. Kaine is making strides, and though he's got a long way to go, he recognizes what needs to be done...

[Assassin Spider]

This has been one of the best posts I've read in a long time. You said everything I wanted to say with the eloquence and conviction that I wish I could muster up.

Thanks, I appreciate that. And Chris Yost said it best, I think, in the preliminary interviews, Kaine is basically what Peter could have become if he'd never had a loving parent figure to teach him right from wrong and had instead been thrown out onto the streets by his parent figure and left to survive completely on his own with the deck almost hideously stacked against him. It should be mentioned that during The Lost Years, Kaine did try to find some measure of redemption with a woman he'd fallen in love with, a way to feel something like a human instead of a monster, and that woman turned out to be using and betraying him all along, which would have reminded him too much of the Jackal for his liking, and it is something he came to hate himself for later. Also, this is the same person whom, in the second act of Grim Hunt, let himself die in Peter's place --- and in Peter's costume, no less --- as the second time he'd done anything truly heroic (first being Spider-Man: Redemption where he saves Ben Reilly from dying in a fire he started and then turns himself in as a measure of atonement for his past crimes). And both times, he did it while his degeneration was still having a debilitating effect on his mind, showing that even then he wasn't completely beyond redemption, but at the same time, he's got a lot to answer for and as Black Widow said in The Avengers, "a lot of red on his ledger." In retrospect, I guess that makes it fitting that he's the Scarlet Spider now, all that "red on his ledger."

[Spider-Mike]

Now don't get me wrong I love the series but we do know that we're all cheering for a not so great human being right Guy has murdered & made peoples lives living hells before & all on account that he was dealt a very bad hand in life to start off with.....Yeah his mind was supposedly warped because of the degeneration (agree to disagree on that) BUT I do belive he had enough control of his mental faculties to know right from wrong and more often then not he chose to do wrong.



In your eyes is Kaine redeemable? To me I don't really think so BUT it will be fun/entertaining to watch him try

Umm.... Isn't that the entire point of Kaine character currently?

[classicgmer]

Umm.... Isn't that the entire point of Kaine character currently?

That he's redeemable I think the question of whether he's redeemable or not is up to the individual reader & to me he'll never be completely redeemable...He's taken the lives of innocent people who never wronged him in any way & to me you can't fully make that up for that once you've crossed that line.



Is Kaine's story interesting? Yes. On a certain level do I have certain amounts of sympathy for him yes? Is the fact that he's making up for his past sins count for something? Yes. Do I believe that his degeneration drove him to be a spiteful, hateful person that lashed out at those who didn't deserve his rage? YES!! Do I buy into the argument that he was so far out of his gord mentally that he couldn't but help do all the heinous things he did? No, no I do not & Imo for the most part it doesn't match up to how he was portrayed during the Clone Saga.

[Assassin Spider]

That he's redeemable I think the question of whether he's redeemable or not is up to the individual reader & to me he'll never be completely redeemable...He's taken the lives of innocent people who never wronged him in any way & to me you can't fully make that up for that once you've crossed that line.



Is Kaine's story interesting? Yes. On a certain level do I have certain amounts of sympathy for him yes? Is the fact that he's making up for his past sins count for something? Yes. Do I believe that his degeneration drove him to be a spiteful, hateful person that lashed out at those who didn't deserve his rage? YES!! Do I buy into the argument that he was so far out of his gord mentally that he couldn't but help do all the heinous things he did? No, no I do not & Imo for the most part it doesn't match up to how he was portrayed during the Clone Saga.

The sad thing is that Kaine would agree with your assessment of him 100%. He doesn't view his previous clone degeneration problems as an "out" for the things he did back then. He wants to be a better person and he's trying to be, but he knows full well what sort of man he used to be and as far as he's concerned, there is no real redemption for him and no chance of him considering himself a hero . . . but he doesn't have to be a monster. That's the important thing in the end, I suppose.

[FirestormTheNuclearMan]

The sad thing is that Kaine would agree with your assessment of him 100%. He doesn't view his previous clone degeneration problems as an "out" for the things he did back then. He wants to be a better person and he's trying to be, but he knows full well what sort of man he used to be and as far as he's concerned, there is no real redemption for him and no chance of him considering himself a hero . . . but he doesn't have to be a monster. That's the important thing in the end, I suppose.

So Kaine is going to be a man that will refuse to let himself every forgive himself?

[utukkuxul]

I think an important aspect of the question that needs to be addressed is: how do you define "redeemable?" What does that actually mean in this case? What would Kaine have to do, in your mind, to be considered "redeemed?"

To me, I think it's a little unfair to take a character who was taught nothing but violence, raised into it and for it, and expect him to turn out much different than he did, and what he's currently doing is certainly showing that he wishes for redemption - but at what point, exactly, does this magical act take effect? What does he have to do to find it?

Of course, that, as others have stated, is part of the point of the book.

[Xenon]

Maybe not to you it doesn't BUT I see contradiction between what Marvel is now stating vs what I read throughout the entirety of the Clone Saga....To say every vile act he committed he did so because the degeneration altered his thought process so that he couldn't think clearly is a cop out to make the current ongoing possible imho.


Here let me put it to you like this since you're so willingly eager to accept this new take Marvel is giving us. Do you think his thought process was so impaired by the degeneration that Kaine was incapable of determining right from wrong

They're saying that yes, that's what happened. Or rather, they're applying a minority rule insanity rule to him, asking if he was in control of his actions. Marvel is explicitly saying that no, he was not, and that's the end of that story. There's nothing that I know of that actually contradicts that, and AFAIK it's not like Kaine's psyche was on full display during the clone saga. You have some things he said, but not much of really what he was thinking (because he wasn't the main character in that story). And it's not like the pain/abuse explanation is really that far fetched. If you've ever known someone with migraines or chronic pain, you also know that they tend to become a bit...short...shall we say, and that's of generally benign pain of a level seemingly much lower than what Kaine's endured.

No offense, but on some level I think that you want there to be a problem. And perhaps if the current book was ignoring his past or acting as though he's some happy-go-lucky do-gooder it'd be one thing, but that's clearly not what's going on. His past has been front and center in four of the five issues thus far released, and seemingly with the Rangers storyline coming up he's still going be dealing with that past (as superheroes generally have a reason for going after a guy).

That he's redeemable I think the question of whether he's redeemable or not is up to the individual reader & to me he'll never be completely redeemable...He's taken the lives of innocent people who never wronged him in any way & to me you can't fully make that up for that once you've crossed that line.

I agree, as long as the person made the conscious decision to do that. It has been stated and at least nominally backed up that this is the situation with Kaine. He had lost rationality and was not responsible for his actions. I recognize that's hard to accept, but one can never truly know the mind of another person, and the mind is a powerful thing.

Is Kaine's story interesting? Yes. On a certain level do I have certain amounts of sympathy for him yes? Is the fact that he's making up for his past sins count for something? Yes. Do I believe that his degeneration drove him to be a spiteful, hateful person that lashed out at those who didn't deserve his rage? YES!! Do I buy into the argument that he was so far out of his gord mentally that he couldn't but help do all the heinous things he did? No, no I do not & Imo for the most part it doesn't match up to how he was portrayed during the Clone Saga.

What specifically makes you not buy it? That is the 64,000 dollar question. You've said it several times, but we need something that is specifically contradictory and not just what you read into it before. Look, I hate retcons as much as the next guy, but there's a differnece between retconning something that's clearly established into something else, and retconning something that's just assumed by the readers based on the information they had. This is new information. So what about the past Kaine contradicts this information is what we need.

[classicgmer]

They're saying that yes, that's what happened. Or rather, they're applying a minority rule insanity rule to him, asking if he was in control of his actions. Marvel is explicitly saying that no, he was not, and that's the end of that story. There's nothing that I know of that actually contradicts that, and AFAIK it's not like Kaine's psyche was on full display during the clone saga. You have some things he said, but not much of really what he was thinking (because he wasn't the main character in that story). And it's not like the pain/abuse explanation is really that far fetched. If you've ever known someone with migraines or chronic pain, you also know that they tend to become a bit...short...shall we say, and that's of generally benign pain of a level seemingly much lower than what Kaine's endured.

No offense, but on some level I think that you want there to be a problem. And perhaps if the current book was ignoring his past or acting as though he's some happy-go-lucky do-gooder it'd be one thing, but that's clearly not what's going on. His past has been front and center in four of the five issues thus far released, and seemingly with the Rangers storyline coming up he's still going be dealing with that past (as superheroes generally have a reason for going after a guy).



I agree, as long as the person made the conscious decision to do that. It has been stated and at least nominally backed up that this is the situation with Kaine. He had lost rationality and was not responsible for his actions. I recognize that's hard to accept, but one can never truly know the mind of another person, and the mind is a powerful thing.




What specifically makes you not buy it? That is the 64,000 dollar question. You've said it several times, but we need something that is specifically contradictory and not just what you read into it before. Look, I hate retcons as much as the next guy, but there's a differnece between retconning something that's clearly established into something else, and retconning something that's just assumed by the readers based on the information they had. This is new information. So what about the past Kaine contradicts this information is what we need.

#1 You do realize you don't have to agree/like anything I'm saying right? You have your opinion I have mine just accept that we're going to have to agree to disagree on this.


#2 People are trying to sit here & suggest that he was so mentally impaired that he had no control of his actions & that he had to act the way he did which is not how I read it at all. For the at least tenth time (maybe a little less) I read it as Kaine was bitter/angry about having abandonment issues & being afflicted with degeneration & lashes out at certain people who don't deserve it with his rage.


I'm sorry but it's just a cop out to attribute his every action or inaction to "Oh no I can't straight" He could think straight at times & he showed it clearly, several times through various actions...If people wanna say he was nuts well ok I don't have a problem with that BUT don't sit here & try & tell he his every action was dictated by the dengeneration screwing with his thought process at all times....It's silly, it doesn't match up with how I read the character & I personally won't accept it.


#3 I don't really care what Marvel is saying right now...The only reason the stance that he was a total basketcase whose degeneration screwed with his head at all times is "official" now is because he has an ongoing now & that sounds better then Kaine being a selfish, callous individual who got dealt a bad hand & was bitter at the rest of the world because of it.


Peter chasitized Kaine for being a selfish prick during Grim Hunt when he told Peter to just run & screw everyone else & he was right to call him selfish....He wasn't selfish cause "he couldn't think straight" He was a selfish prick because he was a selfish prick.


If people want to pawn off all of Kaine's negative traits in the past on him being so mentally ill he couldn't control himself thats their prerogative BUT please stop trying to convince me of it because it's not gonna happen...I've made my opinions on the matter pretty clear so I think it's time to move on.

[Assassin Spider]

So Kaine is going to be a man that will refuse to let himself every forgive himself?

In that respect, he and Peter Parker are little different, except that where a lot of the things Peter wouldn't forgive himself for were things even he couldn't have stopped or prevented, Kaine made deliberate decisions to harm, kill, and ruin others and thus the guilt weighs heavier on him than it would on Peter. In a way, Kaine is similar to how they're currently portraying Wolverine, as someone who knew nothing but violence for most of his life and deadened his conscience to survive but who got back in touch with that conscience through a traumatic event. Thanks to that, now he sees clearly that what he did throughout his life was wrong, that people were hurt in irrevocable ways because of his actions or inaction, and that is something he desperately wants to atone for despite everything telling him that there is no redemption for him.

Also, to answer utukkuxul (what a mouthful), it's as Angel put it in the fourth season: Redemption is a path, not a destination. You'll never stop paying for the things you've done wrong, whether the toll is taken out of your guilty conscience or out of the things and people that matter most to you, but it doesn't mean you can't fight to be a better person than you were and do some good in the world while you have a shot at it. That, I think, is going to be the epiphany that Kaine makes as the Scarlet Spider title continues, and that might be what gives him the strength to hold on and make the best of his new lease on life.