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  1. #1
    Moderator Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Default Should Lee/ Ditko be considered a different writer than Stan Lee?

    There's a week left to vote for your favorite Spider-Man writers and artists, so that CBR could come up with a Top 50 creators list.

    Cronin made an interesting editorial decision, designating the Lee/ Ditko team as a separate writer from Ditko-less Stan Lee, due to Ditko's contributions to the plot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Cronin
    6. Stan Lee/Steve Ditko is one writer. Stan Lee with everyone else is another writer. You just can’t fairly separate Lee from Ditko on those first 40 issues (Amazing #1-38 plus Annuals #1-2), so if you want to list Stan Lee by himself, feel free, but do so taking only his post-Ditko work into consideration. So Stan Lee is the one writer who can appear on the list twice, once by himself for his post-Ditko work and once as part of a writing team with Ditko. Ditko, though, of course can appear on the artists list by himself. He just goes on the writing list as a writing team with Lee.
    What do you guys think of that decision?
    Do you think it should be done in any future "Best Spider-Man writers" lists?

    Personally, I agree with it. It makes the top five writers list more interesting, by giving that Stan Lee guy some competition. And it's a recognition of the differences between the writing of Lee/ Ditko and post-Ditko Stan Lee.
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  2. #2
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    The only problem I see is that Lee/Romita is a better followup than "Ditko-less" or "post-Ditko" Lee.

    With the possible exception of Silver Surfer, Lee's work was always shaped by his artists' sensibilities. Romita's romantic preferences come shining through from the very beginning, so let's give credit where credit is due. Peter Parker would not be the chick magnet he is today without Romita...nor would have transitioned so smoothly from the weirdest superhero around to a mainstream icon. We can also credit Romita with bringing street crime into the book.
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

  3. #3

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    Well, the issue I have with it is that most writers collaborate closely with the artist and others on the creative team. We don't tend to look at that because it just gets very complicated with you start looking at creative teams versus individual creators. But Lee/Romita had a definitively different feel than Lee/Kirby or Lee/Ditko, for instance. Logically, those differences would be due to artist differences.
    Last edited by Scott Taylor; 05-14-2012 at 11:47 AM.
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  4. #4
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Well, the issue I have with it is that most writers collaborate closely with the artist and others on the creative team. We don't tend to look at that because it just gets very complicated with you start looking at creative teams versus individual creators. But Lee/Romita had a definitively different feel than Lee/Kirby or Lee/Ditko, for instance. Logically, those differences would be due to artist differences.
    And we could likewise attribute the commonalities to Lee.
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

  5. #5

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    Along the lines of what Scott said, I disagree with it because it's an exception rather than a rule.
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  6. #6
    Moderator Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Well, the issue I have with it is that most writers collaborate closely with the artist and others on the creative team. We don't tend to look at that because it just gets very complicated with you start looking at creative teams versus individual creators. But Lee/Romita had a definitively different feel than Lee/Kirby or Lee/Ditko, for instance. Logically, those differences would be due to artist differences.
    But were the Lee/ Romita issues drastically different (in terms of writing) from the comics Stan Lee wrote with other artists (John Buscema, Gil Kane, Larry Lieber)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuckles View Post
    Along the lines of what Scott said, I disagree with it because it's an exception rather than a rule.
    In what way?

    Is the recognition of the differences an exception?
    Or is the significance of the pairing an exception?
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  7. #7

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    Ditko should be considered a different writer, but not their team-up
    Their work is equally cheesy
    Their work on Spider-Man is equally fantastic, yet just as cheesy
    Their work on Hulk is just cheese and cliches, but when Stan works with different artiste his work doesn't get highly effected

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  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    But were the Lee/ Romita issues drastically different (in terms of writing) from the comics Stan Lee wrote with other artists (John Buscema, Gil Kane, Larry Lieber)?
    Possibly not. Hard to tell. I broke out my copies of "Origins of Marvel Comics" and "Son of Origins of Marvel Comics" last night and read Avengers #1, Daredevil #1, and Silver Surfer #1. They are all quite different stories, but had a pretty consistent type of approach. As an alternative explanation, assuming its mostly Lee, it could also be that Lee was more passionate about some characters than about other characters.
    Perfect humility dispenses with modesty.

  9. #9

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    By exception, I'm referring to the double standard.
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  10. #10
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Possibly not. Hard to tell. I broke out my copies of "Origins of Marvel Comics" and "Son of Origins of Marvel Comics" last night and read Avengers #1, Daredevil #1, and Silver Surfer #1. They are all quite different stories, but had a pretty consistent type of approach. As an alternative explanation, assuming its mostly Lee, it could also be that Lee was more passionate about some characters than about other characters.
    There's some consistent threads running through all of Lee's work: destiny, power and responsibility, sacrificing a normal life for the greater good...
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

  11. #11
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    The only common factor in all the successful characters and comics that began at Marvel is: Stan Lee.

    His writing is essential. To claim that Ditko has a larger role serves to discredit to Stan Lee. Anyone like myself who has read every Stan written Marvel comic, from his entire run on Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, Hulk, Avengers, X-Men, Silver Surfer, and more knows that Stan is the key ingredient. Every run not written by Stan during that era is inferior. Ditko did not have a larger role that artist/plotter. Stan scripted around 3,000 pages of dialogue on Spider-Man alone, and that deserves the credit that it's due. The person ruling that Lee/Ditko should be its own category, well that's just moronic.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    There's some consistent threads running through all of Lee's work: destiny, power and responsibility, sacrificing a normal life for the greater good...
    Yah I agree. And, of course, Lee gave his characters feet of clay. No super-powerful, well-adjusted aliens from Krypton around here!
    Perfect humility dispenses with modesty.

  13. #13
    Intermediate Member entzauberung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kick-Ass View Post
    The only common factor in all the successful characters and comics that began at Marvel is: Stan Lee.

    His writing is essential. To claim that Ditko has a larger role serves to discredit to Stan Lee. Anyone like myself who has read every Stan written Marvel comic, from his entire run on Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, Hulk, Avengers, X-Men, Silver Surfer, and more knows that Stan is the key ingredient. Every run not written by Stan during that era is inferior. Ditko did not have a larger role that artist/plotter. Stan scripted around 3,000 pages of dialogue on Spider-Man alone, and that deserves the credit that it's due. The person ruling that Lee/Ditko should be its own category, well that's just moronic.
    Ditko DID have a larger role than most artists Stan worked with. It's well documented fact that Ditko was the sole plotter of Spider-Man for the last year or so. If you're of the opinion that plotting is not a part of writing...well, that would be pretty controversial I think.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by entzauberung View Post
    Ditko DID have a larger role than most artists Stan worked with. It's well documented fact that Ditko was the sole plotter of Spider-Man for the last year or so. If you're of the opinion that plotting is not a part of writing...well, that would be pretty controversial I think.
    Yeah, Ditko started plotting the stories beginning in issue #18, although he didn't credit for plotting until issue #25.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. NickerNacker View Post
    Yeah, Ditko started plotting the stories beginning in issue #18, although he didn't credit for plotting until issue #25.
    Well then if that's the case, looks like Stan Lee takes sole credit for not only the best Spider-Man story ever written, but possibly the best Marvel comic ever written, Amazing Fantasy #15. Not only that, but the first 17 issues, arguably the first 10 are the highest quality of the run, where Amazing idea after idea pops out with excellent dialogue. How would the editor of this voting column justify that? He can't. It's a bad column with bad decision making.

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