I wish Cass was batgirl.......

[maximiliani]

Black Canary is having her history shortened and quite altered issue by issue as we speak, and you can subtract Superboy and Supergirl from that equation altogether as they are both full-on reboots just starting out.



Ha, that's how I looked at the 22 yr stretch of Oracle, one long never ending Elseworld story, an alternate version of Batgirl's true self. Now at long last the ACTUAL Barbara has finally revealed herself from that 22yr house of mirrors (get the homage to issue #4?, lol)

LOL wow dude. Just wow. Nice to show your true colors there. What's this about the "one true self?"

Babs is Babs lol she never has one true self except that she's Barbara Gordon. Whether she's Oracle or Batgirl she's still Barbara so she has NO true self.

If you fail to understand that about her character then I'm sorry you're really obsessed with Babs Batgirl man. That's looking at her awfully one dimensional.

[batGRRRl4ever]

If you move them to Earth 2 the only thing they would have in common with the Cass and Steph people love would be their names and looks.

Let me toss this one at you, hasn't the Bertinelli version of the Huntress proven quite popular over the years? Same face, costume, moniker, and first name, but a different character none the less, yes? Never say never, you could absolutely fall in love with the adventures of Earth-2 Black Bat & Red Sparrow (yeah I made that last one up).

[ArnoldoAAD]

I've just realized! You secretly hate Babs and want everyone else to hate her, too. That's why you're so overbearing about how Babgirl is superior to Oracle when she's obviously not!

It all makes sense now

[MajorHoy]

Let me toss this one at you, hasn't the Bertinelli version of the Huntress proven quite popular over the years? Same face, costume, moniker, and first name, but a different character none the less, yes? Never say never, you could absolutely fall in love with the adventures of Earth-2 Black Bat & Red Sparrow (yeah I made that last one up).

But, on the other hand, how would you feel if all the stories in Batgirl so far were just delusional dreams of an Earth-2 Barbara Gordon, and Cass or Steph were still the active Batgirl for the DCnU?

Some may prefer that scenario. So perhaps somebody should tone it down a little?

[Godlike13]

Babs is Babs lol she never has one true self except that she's Barbara Gordon. Whether she's Oracle or Batgirl she's still Barbara so she has NO true self.

Yep

[batGRRRl4ever]

But, on the other hand, how would you feel if all the stories in Batgirl so far were just delusional dreams of an Earth-2 Barbara Gordon, and Cass or Steph were still the active Batgirl for the DCnU?

Some may prefer that scenario. So perhaps somebody should tone it down a little?

Your analogy isn't really apt. That aside, the issue with Cass & Steph's existences is that their histories that allowed them to exist as they were (not as they can be reinterpreted by DC to get a fresh start mind you) were completely predicated on this domino effect of what happened to Barbara, etc. Putting Cass & Steph on Earth-2 as homages to their Batman & Robin as Black Bat & Red Sparrow (I just really like that) gives them their OWN history that isn't required to be dragging on the capes of others. A good character can stand on their own, are you saying that you think that they aren't strong enough characters to have a more individual yet still bat-associated beginning? That their histories can only have them exist in their Pre-Flashpoint incarnations?

Babs has been a Librarian, member of Congress, was an differently-abled info-jock, and now has a degree in Forensic Psychology. The character has had her share of changes yet remains still who she has always been at her core. Do you think that Cass & Steph are SO weak that they can't survive as characters by getting tweaked and rebooted as needed to change with the changed DCU? That's not coming across as a lot of faith in their potential for longevity, IMO.

[MajorHoy]

Babs has been a Librarian, member of Congress, was an differently-abled info-jock, and now has a degree in Forensic Psychology. The character has had her share of changes yet remains still who she has always been at her core.

And some of us may feel that even if you discount her past as Oracle, DCnU Barbara-as-Batgirl doesn't feel at all like pre-The Killing Joke Barbara-as-Batgirl. They come across as two separate characters, with the current version failing to measure up to the Batgirl from Detective Comics and Batman Family.

[Blight]

Yeah it's kind of sad we still haven't gotten any follow-up of Cass after Gates. It's just like she vanishes. We know the event happened since it was referenced. I just figure DC wasted a perfect follow-up with they could have had more Bat Kids teaming up and it being awesome. I kind of want to see Dick and Cass teaming up again. The conversation she has with Dick on Gotham City and tragedy was one of the best parts of Gates for me.

[batGRRRl4ever]

And some of us may feel that even if you discount her past as Oracle, DCnU Barbara-as-Batgirl doesn't feel at all like pre-The Killing Joke Barbara-as-Batgirl. They come across as two separate characters, with the current version failing to measure up to the Batgirl from Detective Comics and Batman Family.

This a Cass-centric thread though & I noticed you completely ignored both my points and questions pertaining to the Cass character in my very last post.

[Sunbird]

Let me toss this one at you, hasn't the Bertinelli version of the Huntress proven quite popular over the years? Same face, costume, moniker, and first name, but a different character none the less, yes? Never say never, you could absolutely fall in love with the adventures of Earth-2 Black Bat & Red Sparrow (yeah I made that last one up).

Well, I hardly think that someone that refuses to acknowledge 20 odd years of one version of Babs is in a position to comment on people being skeptical of massive changes to their favourite characters. Besides, I never said I'd hate them on Earth 2, just that isn't what I'm looking for. If asked I would want them on Earth main/1/prime/whatever with as much of their continuity intact as possible. I'd also prefer that the classic JSA were, well classic (instead of idolising the precious trinity), so I'm kinda used to disappointment now though.

[ArnoldoAAD]

And some of us may feel that even if you discount her past as Oracle, DCnU Barbara-as-Batgirl doesn't feel at all like pre-The Killing Joke Barbara-as-Batgirl. They come across as two separate characters, with the current version failing to measure up to the Batgirl from Detective Comics and Batman Family.

FakeBatgirl is nothing of what the character she once was, it doesnt matter what her job was

[MajorHoy]

This a Cass-centric thread though & I noticed you completely ignored both my points and questions pertaining to the Cass character in my very last post.

You mean this part?

Your analogy isn't really apt. That aside, the issue with Cass & Steph's existences is that their histories that allowed them to exist as they were (not as they can be reinterpreted by DC to get a fresh start mind you) were completely predicated on this domino effect of what happened to Barbara, etc. Putting Cass & Steph on Earth-2 as homages to their Batman & Robin as Black Bat & Red Sparrow (I just really like that) gives them their OWN history that isn't required to be dragging on the capes of others. A good character can stand on their own, are you saying that you think that they aren't strong enough characters to have a more individual yet still bat-associated beginning? That their histories can only have them exist in their Pre-Flashpoint incarnations?

I didn't reply to that because I already said that Cass and Steph shouldn't be transplanted to Earth 2.

I'm still waiting to see if / what DC does with them on Prime Earth.

[DCfan101]

Black Canary is having her history shortened and quite altered issue by issue as we speak, and you can subtract Superboy and Supergirl from that equation altogether as they are both full-on reboots just starting out.



Ha, that's how I looked at the 22 yr stretch of Oracle, one long never ending Elseworld story, an alternate version of Batgirl's true self. Now at long last the ACTUAL Barbara has finally revealed herself from that 22yr house of mirrors (get the homage to issue #4?, lol)

How can DCnU batgirl be superior to Oracle? They both have there strengths and weaknesses.

[ArnoldoAAD]

How can DCnU batgirl be superior to Oracle? They both have there strengths and weaknesses.

just for curiosity
what are the strengths of DCnU batgirl?

and being able to walk doesnt count as an strength

[batGRRRl4ever]

Well, I hardly think that someone that refuses to acknowledge 20 odd years of one version of Babs is in a position to comment on people being skeptical of massive changes to their favourite characters.

Touche.

How can DCnU batgirl be superior to Oracle? They both have there strengths and weaknesses.

I never said one was superior over another, I simply have a version I prefer as a reader.

Babs is Babs lol she never has one true self except that she's Barbara Gordon. Whether she's Oracle or Batgirl she's still Barbara so she has NO true self.

Even in the previous continuity as Oracle, she ALWAYS internally saw herself STILL as Batgirl:



Batgirl IS who she is, always has been, always will be (except future tales like Batman Beyond).

just for curiosity
what are the strengths of DCnU batgirl?

Strengths of DCnU (no reference to previous incarnations) Batgirl:
Being a survivor and not staying mentally a victim of a gross assault
Being an avenger and protector of Gotham from the very types who have in the past grievously harmed her
Strength of spirit
Sharp intellect
Eidetic memory
As fit as an olympic level gymnast
Loving and protective of her father
Never ever quits or gives up - incredibly tenacious
Sharp eye and memory for detail - helps with her detective skills
Is college educated in the challenging field of Forensic Psychology, which she accomplished during her 3 yr convalescence
Always goes for the Knockout against a villian (as specifically quoted in BOP #8)
Is good enough in her hand to hand combat skills to spar with Black Canary
Can accomplish many of the same feats as Batman with far fewer resources
Can inspire hope & faith in the likes of Batman, Black Canary, Nightwing and the common populace of Gotham
Despises profanity
Good sense of humor
Willing to give someone a second chance (Gretel, Danny, & her mother)
Can take on foes nearly twice her size (Mirror) and even be meta's (Grotesque), and still WIN


And that's just in the first eight issues