Star Wars fandom question about Anakin/Darth Vader

[Kyer]

At the end of Return of the Jedi (movie #6) there is a scene on Endor where the victorious Luke Skywalker sees the Force 'ghosts' of Obiwan Kenobi, Yoda...and Anakin Skywalker.

I don't recall it ever being mentioned in the movies, but the novels had it that Qui-Gonn Jinn studied the 'Whills' teachings and that these teachings were what allowed him to become a 'ghost'. He then supposedly taught the technique to Obiwan and then sometime taught Yoda?

If this is actual canon, then I'm puzzled by how Anakin Skywalker learned how to become a Force ghost. He would have been Darth Vader since the end of movie #3 (before Obiwan learned) and I can't see either he or Yoda teaching a Sith Lord the skill.

Was it ever mentioned in the books or revised movies how Anakin made the Force Ghost team (as it were)? Or was it implied that he was just so powerful in the Force that he automatically knew how to do it?

[carabas]

You really shouldn't expect anything connected to the prequel theory to make much, if any sense.

[Kyer]

Sense from anything fictional? (Heck, sense from anything at all.)

Naw. I was just wondering if George Lucas had slipped an explanation into the revised DVD versions of the movies like he slipped in 'Young Anakin' into that ghost scene rather than the original actor who played the part of Darth Vader back in the 1980's when Return first came out. A move, btw, that made no sense to me then or now because why then were both Kenobi and Yoda's force ghosts still as old in appearance as when they slipped into The Force?

More likely was that there was something in a novel. I haven't read any of the books save for Splinter In The Mind's Eye back when it was first published. (Yes, that long ago.) Only learned of The Whills through fanfiction sources. That's when this question hit me.

[ChrisIII]

There's a deleted ROTS scene where Qui-Gon communicates with Yoda and gives him the basics. A rough version of the scene is included on the blu-ray set. Basically you have to be selfless. As for Anakin, it's implied because he was 'selfless' at the end, he was able to become a force ghost. Either that or Obi-Wan and Yoda 'rescued' him. It's a bit unclear though if Vader actually vanished, we see Luke burning the armor, but it's unclear whether it was empty or not.



Lucas's actual original idea for ROTJ was for Yoda and Obi-Wan to become recorporeal again and help Luke fight Vader at the end of ROTJ. Thankfully the idea got nixed.


In the earlier expanded universe stuff, it was assumed from the OT-the only movies at that time-that all the Jedi and Sith/Dark Jedi all vanished and became spirits. In particular the Dark Empire saga has Palpatine's force ghost re-enter a clone body. When Qui-Gon didn't vanish upon his death in TPM, there were quite a few retcons that needed to be done....

In the Thrawn novels, Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin pretty much ascend to a higher level of the force, meaning that they couldn't really help Luke out anymore. They do appear in some stuff though like the post-ROTJ Marvel comics, and in the novel Truce At Bakura, where Anakin's ghost appears to Leia.



Here's a more knowledgeable Wiki source (Although it does contain some spoilers) http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_ghost

[Mat001]

At the end of Return of the Jedi (movie #6) there is a scene on Endor where the victorious Luke Skywalker sees the Force 'ghosts' of Obiwan Kenobi, Yoda...and Anakin Skywalker.

I don't recall it ever being mentioned in the movies, but the novels had it that Qui-Gonn Jinn studied the 'Whills' teachings and that these teachings were what allowed him to become a 'ghost'. He then supposedly taught the technique to Obiwan and then sometime taught Yoda?

If this is actual canon, then I'm puzzled by how Anakin Skywalker learned how to become a Force ghost. He would have been Darth Vader since the end of movie #3 (before Obiwan learned) and I can't see either he or Yoda teaching a Sith Lord the skill.

Was it ever mentioned in the books or revised movies how Anakin made the Force Ghost team (as it were)? Or was it implied that he was just so powerful in the Force that he automatically knew how to do it?

Lucas states in the commentary that Obi-wan and Yoda helped Anakin to become a ghost. This was based on the earlier drafts where Yoda helps Anakin after he sacrifices himself to stop Sidious. Qui-gon first learned of this when he heard Tahl speak to him after her death, when she stopped him from killing using his anger and hate. He then went on to discover the reason for this and found the Whills and the Shaman who could retain his identity. An art that the Jedi once used, but had largely fallen by the wayside.

[J. Robb]

This is my favourite theory: The Luke Side of the Force

[kane]

Lucas states in the commentary that Obi-wan and Yoda helped Anakin to become a ghost. This was based on the earlier drafts where Yoda helps Anakin after he sacrifices himself to stop Sidious. Qui-gon first learned of this when he heard Tahl speak to him after her death, when she stopped him from killing using his anger and hate. He then went on to discover the reason for this and found the Whills and the Shaman who could retain his identity. An art that the Jedi once used, but had largely fallen by the wayside.

So once again we have something which does not make sense in the movies and leads to George making shit up later

[Kyer]

So once again we have something which does not make sense in the movies and leads to George making shit up later

He must have taken his cue from comic books.

[Mat001]

So once again we have something which does not make sense in the movies and leads to George making shit up later

How does it not make sense? This is from the screenplay. The scene was cut because Lucas couldn't get it to work.

YODA: "Failed to stop the Sith Lord, I have. Still much to learn, there is..."

QUI -GON: "Patience. You will have time. I did not. When I became one with the Force I made a great discovery. With my training, you will be able to merge with the Force at will. Your physical self will fade away, but you will still retain your consciousness. You will become more powerful than any Sith."

YODA: "Eternal consciousness."

QUI-GON: "The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed."

YODA: ". . . to become one with the Force, and influence still have . . . A power greater than all, it is."

QUI-GON: "You will learn to let go of everything. No attachment, no thought of self. No physical self."

YODA: "A great Jedi Master, you have become, Qui-Gon Jinn. Your apprentice I gratefully become."


"We cut to Yoda, who is meditating, who hears this (the Tusken slaughter) off-screen, and we do hear a voice in there, and that voice is the voice of Qui-Gon Jinn. So we very subtly establish that in this rather intense emotional connection, where Yoda is feeling the pain and suffering of Anakin and the Tusken Raiders, he's also making a connection, unwittingly, with Qui-Gon Jinn. Up to this point (in the saga), we haven't established that you can make a connection with the departed in this world, and that will become a factor in Episode III. Lots of issues sort of come out of that - but this is the very beginning of it. Yoda making a connection with Qui-Gon Jinn in the middle of Anakin's pain."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

"We never see the ghost of Qui-Gon; he's not that accomplished. He's able to retain his personality, but he's not able to become a corporeal ghost."

--George Lucas, page 40 of the Making Of Revenge Of The Sith.

"There’s a hint of how Obi-wan eventually in ANH has learned to give up his physical being and becomes one with the Force and you understand here that his old master Qui-Gon has something to do with it - come back from the netherworld of the Force and teach him how to do it."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

In the rough draft…Ben explains that…if "Vader becomes one with the dark side of the Force, he will lose all identity. If he turns to the good side, he will pass through the Netherworld" and in the revised rough draft, Yoda "will rescue him before he becomes one with the Force."

--Lorenzo Bouzereau, explanation from Star Wars The Annotated Screenplays page 300.

"This little scene where he burns his father's body, it wasn't originally in the script. But I decided it gave more closure in terms of Luke's relationship to his father, letting go of his father. Even though later on, as we get to the end of the movie, as he joins the Force, he was able to retain his original identity, it's because of Obi-Wan and Yoda, who learnt how to do that: how to join the Force at will and then retain your identity."

--George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

The origin how Qui-gon discovered it was covered in "The Jedi Apprentice" series and "Revenge Of The Sith" novelization.

[Simbob4000]

At the end of Return of the Jedi (movie #6) there is a scene on Endor where the victorious Luke Skywalker sees the Force 'ghosts' of Obiwan Kenobi, Yoda...and Anakin Skywalker.

I don't recall it ever being mentioned in the movies, but the novels had it that Qui-Gonn Jinn studied the 'Whills' teachings and that these teachings were what allowed him to become a 'ghost'. He then supposedly taught the technique to Obiwan and then sometime taught Yoda?

If this is actual canon, then I'm puzzled by how Anakin Skywalker learned how to become a Force ghost. He would have been Darth Vader since the end of movie #3 (before Obiwan learned) and I can't see either he or Yoda teaching a Sith Lord the skill.

Was it ever mentioned in the books or revised movies how Anakin made the Force Ghost team (as it were)? Or was it implied that he was just so powerful in the Force that he automatically knew how to do it?

It's best if you just forget the prequels are things that were made. Then you won't have to think about training to be a force ghost.

[jediracer]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_ghost

Darth Vader learned of this ability through Darth Sidious, and upon his death, the spirits of Kenobi and Yoda completed his training by granting him the last step in becoming a spirit. Anakin's spirit appeared as that of his younger self, prior to his fall to the dark side.

[kane]

How does it not make sense? This is from the screenplay. The scene was cut because Lucas couldn't get it to work.

YODA: "Failed to stop the Sith Lord, I have. Still much to learn, there is..."

QUI -GON: "Patience. You will have time. I did not. When I became one with the Force I made a great discovery. With my training, you will be able to merge with the Force at will. Your physical self will fade away, but you will still retain your consciousness. You will become more powerful than any Sith."

YODA: "Eternal consciousness."

QUI-GON: "The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed."

YODA: ". . . to become one with the Force, and influence still have . . . A power greater than all, it is."

QUI-GON: "You will learn to let go of everything. No attachment, no thought of self. No physical self."

YODA: "A great Jedi Master, you have become, Qui-Gon Jinn. Your apprentice I gratefully become."


"We cut to Yoda, who is meditating, who hears this (the Tusken slaughter) off-screen, and we do hear a voice in there, and that voice is the voice of Qui-Gon Jinn. So we very subtly establish that in this rather intense emotional connection, where Yoda is feeling the pain and suffering of Anakin and the Tusken Raiders, he's also making a connection, unwittingly, with Qui-Gon Jinn. Up to this point (in the saga), we haven't established that you can make a connection with the departed in this world, and that will become a factor in Episode III. Lots of issues sort of come out of that - but this is the very beginning of it. Yoda making a connection with Qui-Gon Jinn in the middle of Anakin's pain."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

"We never see the ghost of Qui-Gon; he's not that accomplished. He's able to retain his personality, but he's not able to become a corporeal ghost."

--George Lucas, page 40 of the Making Of Revenge Of The Sith.

"There’s a hint of how Obi-wan eventually in ANH has learned to give up his physical being and becomes one with the Force and you understand here that his old master Qui-Gon has something to do with it - come back from the netherworld of the Force and teach him how to do it."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

In the rough draft…Ben explains that…if "Vader becomes one with the dark side of the Force, he will lose all identity. If he turns to the good side, he will pass through the Netherworld" and in the revised rough draft, Yoda "will rescue him before he becomes one with the Force."

--Lorenzo Bouzereau, explanation from Star Wars The Annotated Screenplays page 300.

"This little scene where he burns his father's body, it wasn't originally in the script. But I decided it gave more closure in terms of Luke's relationship to his father, letting go of his father. Even though later on, as we get to the end of the movie, as he joins the Force, he was able to retain his original identity, it's because of Obi-Wan and Yoda, who learnt how to do that: how to join the Force at will and then retain your identity."

--George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

The origin how Qui-gon discovered it was covered in "The Jedi Apprentice" series and "Revenge Of The Sith" novelization.

It was not in the movies. If Lucas needs novels and commentaries to explain something in the movies then he failed.

Btw. I do not know if we can believe everything Lucas says. People tend to justify their decisions later and make stuff up.

[Mat001]

It's best if you just forget the prequels are things that were made. Then you won't have to think about training to be a force ghost.

Why? Why couldn't it be an ability that had to be learned, just like everything else with the Force?

It was not in the movies. If Lucas needs novels and commentaries to explain something in the movies then he failed.

Except this part was in the film.

YODA: "Master Kenobi, a moment. In your solitude on Tatooine, training I have for you."

OBI-WAN: "Training??"

YODA: "An old friend has learned the path to immortality."

OBI-WAN: "Who?"

YODA: "One who has returned from the netherworld of the Force to train me . . . your old Master, Qui-Gon Jinn."

OBI-WAN: "Qui-Gon?"

YODA: "How to commune with him. I will teach you."

Btw. I do not know if we can believe everything Lucas says. People tend to justify their decisions later and make stuff up.

Except it's not something made up later. Lucas didn't originally intend to kill Obi-wan in ANH, but because he wanted Vader to be considered a threat, he realized that he needed to make a sacrifice. His wife suggested Threepio and after saying no to that, she suggested Obi-wan since he didn't do anything after leaving the Death Star. So Lucas went with that and chose to have him speak as the Force to Luke. It wasn't until ROTJ, that the concept of the ability being taught first manifested itself in the revised rough draft. This was based on the idea of Vader stomping on Obi-wan's robes after his body disappeared. But there was another problem. Obi-wan and Yoda were originally going to help Luke in his battle with the Sith, including Obi-wan returning from the netherrealm of the Force. But after talking with Kasdan, it was decided that both Jedi should only appear on Dagobah and on Endor at the end. So that Luke could face the Sith alone. With it went all reference in the film to their involvement in helping Anakin.

It was when TPM was being written that Lucas opted to revisit that idea, which is why Qui-gon did not vanish. AOTC would then hint that he was still a ghost, but an incorporeal one. With ROTS finally addressing the subject. But the idea that it had to be taught does go back to 1981.

[Michael P]

Lucas didn't come up with the "you have to learn to become a Force Ghost" bit until well after Jedi was made. I suspect it was sometime after somebody pointed out to him that Qui-Gon's body not vanishing in Phantom Menace constituted a plot hole.

[Mat001]

Except for the part where the actual script for the early drafts of ROTJ, specifically state that Yoda and Obi-wan had to help Anakin to become a ghost. You might want to pick up "The Annotated Screenplays" or read "The Secret History Of Star Wars". Both of which confirm that Lucas and Kasdan came up with this way before TPM was made.