Wonder Woman 9 Preview

[Gaelforce]

dshipp,

Azzarello said flat out that 'her history was intact.'

This means that there have been outsiders on Paradise Island, that for a time it was open to the outside world where they shared their knowledge, and that Hippolyta is capable of and has spent considerable time viewing the outside world and learning from it.

So they aren't completely isolated.

In this current incarnation, we have no idea how they raised Diana, what they taught her about the outside world, why she left Paradise Island and on what terms (though it seemed it was on good terms considering how well she was treated in issue 2). We don't know if she was taught to hate men or not, if she volunteered to go/won a contest to go/rebelled and left, etc.

Did they gather information from the men they slept with on ships? Clearly, at least three times a century they leave the island, so where does it say they never leave it otherwise?

Right now, we just have no clue.

[slvn]

I know it's a "working hypothesis," and I think it's valid speculation. I like your explanation for the "hoods" for example. But it's still a lot of speculation not based on much in the way of firm footing.

Fair enough. But what are the other explanations for why the Amazons are keeping it a secret? If the other explanation is "because Azz didn't want her to know and he didn't bother to come up with a reason why she didn't," then I have to say, I find my explanation more plausible.

She isn't a child, you know?

No, she's not. But my guess is that they don't tell their young women until they have to, and the raids haven't come around again in Diana's lifetime.

Which deity do you think fits here?

I've guessed Aphrodite, for a few reasons:
1.Wonder Woman, in issue 7, says that "Absolutely nothing!" is wrong with Aprhodite. This COULD be a hint that she, and maybe the other Amazons, worship and adore Aphrodite and tend not to question what she tells them.
2. Right after Wonder Woman calls Aphrodite perfect, Eros says "Careful, there, Wonder Woman. Looks can be deceiving." This COULD be a hint that Aphrodite, beautiful as she is, has a monstrous side (just as the monstrous-looking Hephaestus, whom we meet in the net panel, may have some inner beauty).
3. Hephaestus may have a soft spot for Aphrodite, which would explain why he stops short of ratting her out to Wonder Woman.
4. Rituals involving sex seem like a good fit for a dark version of the love goddess.

But that's just a guess. Maybe Strife somehow gave the idea to Aphrodite, Athene and Artemis, and they made it law for the Amazons. Who knows?

Liking the King of the Gods is not the best evidence that they had many positive thoughts for the males of our kind.

Of course not. But my point is just that, leaving aside their thrice-centennial behavior, we don't know that they are all as misandrist as the comments that one or two of them made would suggest.

I still find it kind of funny that you so often paint any and all complaints about Azzarello-Woman in the best possible light. ;)

Somebody has to. :)

It's much easier to be patient when you are enjoying a story, no? ;)

Yes. And sometimes it's much easier to enjoy a story if you are patient!

And the "nastier customs" began with their first words in #2. This isn't a brand new revelation.

Well, there's nasty and then there's nastier. ;)

As for Exoristos, are you saying she exists in the modern DCU? Otherwise, I don't see how see would mentor Diana (or maybe it's Ghost Obi Wan style of mentoring?).

Nope, just saying she could. They are immortal, unless they get killed. She could also be a legend and inspiration. Or completely unknown, or denigrated. Anyway, I'm just mentioning her as an example; there could also be other Amazons, even her own mother, who taught Diana that men are not always bad.

[americanwonder]

Fair enough. But what are the other explanations for why the Amazons are keeping it a secret? If the other explanation is "because Azz didn't want her to know and he didn't bother to come up with a reason why she didn't," then I have to say, I find my explanation more plausible.

Not saying Azzarello didn't bother to come up with an explanation, I'm saying he hasn't give us much to go on for 8 issues. We don't even get much explanation for their extreme isolationism and distrust of men (which they aren't trying to keep a secret). That's more 'factual' than your 'plausible,' no? ;) I know he's said the story will start to give us some answers (and I say it's about time).

No, she's not. But my guess is that they don't tell their young women until they have to, and the raids haven't come around again in Diana's lifetime.

Not really buying into this one. Think about it, mom is going to never explain the "birds and bees" to "Tonight, we're all going out to rape and kill some men, and you have to come along. Oh, by the way, if you have a boy, we'll trade him for something more useful"? Cultures don't really function that way; it's a gradual process, a build-up, into the ideals, expectations and norms inherent to one's society. Diana seems far too shocked as if she had no clue to this very central core of theirr society, as if there was no acculturation going on. Southern slave owners may not have wanted their kids to see all the ugly going on, but they did raise their kids on their fundamental beliefs that owning slaves was well and proper. The kids didn't grow up shocked to learn that daddy owned slaves.

I've guessed Aphrodite, for a few reasons:

That would be my guess as well (might as well trash more of the women in this story, right?). I think it might even play into why Hephaestus isn't the Amazons' biggest fan (me and my boys hate you and your girls).

Of course not. But my point is just that, leaving aside their thrice-centennial behavior, we don't know that they are all as misandrist as the comments that one or two of them made would suggest.

Not buying into this one either. The comments by the Amazons in #2, and Diana's reaction to them, isn't portrayed as if it is out of the norm.

Somebody has to. :)

And I'm glad somebody does. :) But it can make your posts look a little one-sided (perhaps to off-set my one-sided posts).

Yes. And sometimes it's much easier to enjoy a story if you are patient!

Many a crappy story has tried to use the "be patient" line to get people to keep buying. Just sayin'. ;)

[Rob_Olivera]

Not saying Azzarello didn't bother to come up with an explanation, I'm saying he hasn't give us much to go on for 8 issues. We don't even get much explanation for their extreme isolationism and distrust of men (which they aren't trying to keep a secret). That's more 'factual' than your 'plausible,' no? ;) I know he's said the story will start to give us some answers (and I say it's about time).



Not really buying into this one. Think about it, mom is going to never explain the "birds and bees" to "Tonight, we're all going out to rape and kill some men, and you have to come along. Oh, by the way, if you have a boy, we'll trade him for something more useful"? Cultures don't really function that way; it's a gradual process, a build-up, into the ideals, expectations and norms inherent to one's society. Diana seems far too shocked as if she had no clue to this very central core of theirr society, as if there was no acculturation going on. Southern slave owners may not have wanted their kids to see all the ugly going on, but they did raise their kids on their fundamental beliefs that owning slaves was well and proper. The kids didn't grow up shocked to learn that daddy owned slaves.



That would be my guess as well (might as well trash more of the women in this story, right?). I think it might even play into why Hephaestus isn't the Amazons' biggest fan (me and my boys hate you and your girls).



Not buying into this one either. The comments by the Amazons in #2, and Diana's reaction to them, isn't portrayed as if it is out of the norm.



And I'm glad somebody does. :) But it can make your posts look a little one-sided (perhaps to off-set my one-sided posts).



Many a crappy story has tried to use the "be patient" line to get people to keep buying. Just sayin'. ;)

If I may...

I think we've gotten used to the idea that Diana did not know about the raids... but I think that is not necessarily true. She DID seem shocked to learn there were male amazons but that was it. What if that is the only part she didn't know? She said (in issue 7) "I thought it was divine". Yeah, she thought that only FEMALE amazons were born was divine. For all we know, she IS aware of the raids.

[americanwonder]

Well, quite obviously, if Marston based his Wonder Woman on the Amazons, than your draft would be based on the history of the "real life" Amazons; Marston deviated from that history, for some reason, ...

It seems quite obvious that Marston deviated from myth because he wanted to tell a very different story. To me, Marston's Amazons are very different, and intentionally so, than the Amazons of myth, in a similar way that All-Star Superman is different to Red Son Superman.

To me, Marston used his version of the Amazons to essentially say, "What history taught us about these women isn't right. Watch what these women can do when given the chance."

... based on the true Amazons with all of their faults, ...

What "true" Amazons? Even the old stories don't agree on who/what the Amazons were. At best, Azzarello is only being true to some stories of the Amazons (and even departing from that). If we leave out some of the accounts of any society because they don't fit our desired portrayal of them, are we really being "true" to history (as true to history as we can be using myth)? So, imo, the "true" theroy is full of holes and doesn't stand up very well.

By going with a portrayal of archaic and barbaric Amazons, Azzarello (and DC) seems to me like he wants to portray: "What some history taught us about these women is right."

Let's go back thousands of years to a very sexist era, and let's use their outsider perspective (full of their own distrust) to throw some more dirt on the most renowned female dominated society, because we can't have DC's Amazons be positive? They can't even advance in any way for 3,000 years? Yeah, I think it's a terrible message for WW.

[americanwonder]

If I may...

I think we've gotten used to the idea that Diana did not know about the raids... but I think that is not necessarily true. She DID seem shocked to learn there were male amazons but that was it. What if that is the only part she didn't know? She said (in issue 7) "I thought it was divine". Yeah, she thought that only FEMALE amazons were born was divine. For all we know, she IS aware of the raids.

Very astute point, Rob. It does kind of seem that way, or at least open to that interpretation (so far). Maybe she knows they "go out" clubbing, but doesn't know about the actual 'clubbing' and later baby-trade?

Still, very, very ugly. I really don't like seeing WW's home painted this ugly. Really disappointed that more creators don't seem to use as much creativity in the positive as they do the negative.

[slvn]

Not saying Azzarello didn't bother to come up with an explanation, I'm saying he hasn't give us much to go on for 8 issues. We don't even get much explanation for their extreme isolationism and distrust of men (which they aren't trying to keep a secret). That's more 'factual' than your 'plausible,' no? ;) I know he's said the story will start to give us some answers (and I say it's about time).

It's factual that their behavior hasn't been explained yet; it's implausible, to me, that there is no explanation for their not having told Diana. i'm just saying that other than shame, I can't think of any other good explanations. Can you?

Not really buying into this one. Think about it, mom is going to never explain the "birds and bees" to "Tonight, we're all going out to rape and kill some men, and you have to come along. Oh, by the way, if you have a boy, we'll trade him for something more useful"? Cultures don't really function that way

I would hope it could be presented more compellingly than that. Maybe there's a rite of passage, vision quests, what have you. Do any real cultures reveal so much so important information to young adults so suddenly? Not that I can think of, but I'm willing for a isolated society of immortal women to have some unique ways of doing things. Some may have said that Azz's Amazon's are more realistic, but that's not my claim. I read this as something more like a modern myth than as realism. So it doesn't really bother me that the Amazons' culture may not work in the usual ways. I was able to buy that a woman was made of clay, and I can buy that a culture keeps secrets from young people.

Not buying into this one either. The comments by the Amazons in #2, and Diana's reaction to them, isn't portrayed as if it is out of the norm.

It may be the norm, or at least common; that wouldn't necessarily mean that it is unanimous or that there was no way for Diana to be exposed to more positive view of men.

And I'm glad somebody does. :) But it can make your posts look a little one-sided (perhaps to off-set my one-sided posts).

That's OK with me--I respect balanced views, and I try to support my arguments, but I'm not out to be an impartial judge.

To be honest, though, what I feel passionate about is not so much the Amazons as the principle that it's not a good idea to make harsh judgements about a whole group of people without knowing a lot about them and hearing their side. In this case, it's just fiction, and there's nothing wrong with judging them if you want to--and I'm sure I'm not completely consistent about this, and there are probably lots of times when I make judgements about fictional groups without giving it much thought. But the more I hear stuff like "well, one of them said x, so they must all believe x," or "they do y, so they must all be savages," the more I want to say, "well, wait...let's hear their side and find out more about the context." (Judging the book, for me, is different from judging the Amazons, of course. If I wasn't enjoying the read, I wouldn't wait to find what kind of people the Amazons really are; I'd just stop reading.)

Many a crappy story has tried to use the "be patient" line to get people to keep buying. Just sayin'. ;)

I wouldn't be patient if I wasn't interested. It's not like I'm finding the story boring now and hoping it will get better; I find it fascinating now. I don't need to have the answers before I can enjoy the story. The mysteries have been very effective in building my interest. That doesn't mean you should like it; it just means I do!

[slvn]

Very astute point, Rob. It does kind of seem that way, or at least open to that interpretation (so far). Maybe she knows they "go out" clubbing, but doesn't know about the actual 'clubbing' and later baby-trade?

Still, very, very ugly. I really don't like seeing WW's home painted this ugly. Really disappointed that more creators don't seem to use as much creativity in the positive as they do the negative.

I think, and have said before, that she almost certainly did know that the Amazons sometimes left the island and had sex with men; I just doubt that she knew it took the form of anything like a "raid."

[Rob_Olivera]

Very astute point, Rob. It does kind of seem that way, or at least open to that interpretation (so far). Maybe she knows they "go out" clubbing, but doesn't know about the actual 'clubbing' and later baby-trade?

Still, very, very ugly. I really don't like seeing WW's home painted this ugly. Really disappointed that more creators don't seem to use as much creativity in the positive as they do the negative.

No AmWonder.. I think if she knows about the raids at all, she knows the whole story. We keep thinking of things to shield her from having ignored it, but if she knew... she knew! At any rate, that is my idea. There is no need for anyone on that island to be "ashamed" about what they're doing because it is the ONLY way of life they know. To be ashamed would mean that they have a point of comparison.

[americanwonder]

It's factual that their behavior hasn't been explained yet; it's implausible, to me, that there is no explanation for their not having told Diana. i'm just saying that other than shame, I can't think of any other good explanations. Can you?

No, not really. But I don't think "shame" is a very good explanation either. The whole portrayal (to me) feels more like shallow manufactured melodrama from poor daytime soaps. I actually think the writing in general could have made for a much stronger story without resorting to such elements as this.

I would hope it could be presented more interestingly than that. Maybe there's a rite of passage, vision quests, what have you. Do any known reveal so much so important information to young adults so suddenly? Not that I can think of, but I'm willing for a isolated society of immortal women to have some unique ways of doing things. Some may have said that Azz's Amazon's are more realistic, but that's not my claim. I read this as something more like a modern myth than as realism. So it doesn't really bother me that the Amazons' culture may not work in the usual ways. I was able to buy that a woman was made of clay, and I can buy that a culture keeps secrets from young people.

I thank you for this, recognizing the mythical over the "realism." Sure, not every rite of passage for a fictional (and immortal) society needs to act like a typical rite of passage. But, this one would be a HUGE jump! To me, it's a little too plot-driven convenience to keep it a secret, and I find it somewhat disingenuous. They're immortal but can't advance because advancing is unrealistic? They need "dirt" because they're too "perfect" but they can perfectly keep huge secrets? Isn't meshing well for me.

It may be the norm, or at least common; that wouldn't necessarily mean that it is unanimous or that there was no way for Diana to be exposed to more positive view of men.

"We just got back from clubbing a boat load of men, but I met the nicest guy." ;)

That's OK with me--I respect balanced views, and I try to support my arguments, but I'm not out to be an impartial judge.

And for what it's worth, I think you do a wonderful job. Honest. You help me raise my own game here. :)

To be honest, though, what I feel passionate about is not so much the Amazons as the principle that it's not a good idea to make harsh judgements about a whole group of people without knowing a lot about them and hearing their side...

In general, I totally agree. In fact, it's one reason Marston's Amazons fascinate me (as well as boggle my mind at times). Instead of an outsiders' side of the story; it was their side of the story. Here (yes, I know I'm impatient), but the story is very one-sided. I leave room for changing any and all views of the story as a whole as more info comes along, but I can really only judge what I have. And the story, not just issue #7, is very one-sided, imo.

(Judging the book, for me, is different from judging the Amazons, of course.

I agree with this as well. Mostly. I complain most about the portrayal of the Amazons because that's the biggest issue for me. I can't completely seperate the two because the portrayal and use of the Amazons is a big part of the book.

I wouldn't be patient if I wasn't interested. It's not like I'm finding the story boring now and hoping it will get better; I find it fascinating now. I don't need to have the answers before I can enjoy the story. The mysteries have been very effective in building my interest. That doesn't mean you should like it; it just means I do!

And vice versa. Me not liking aspects of the story is not me saying no one should find it interesting. In general, I don't need stories to give me all the answers before I can enjoy them. Some of my favorite stories never clearly explain everything, and I wouldn't want them to. But, if I'm not enjoying it, it's harder to be patient waiting for explanations regarding the parts I don't like.

And honestly, I'm a bit jealous. I want to like this run. I really do. There is much good in it. And the art is great. But some of the elements are very big obstacles that I just can't accept as is. It cheapens the story as a whole in my eyes.

[americanwonder]

... what they're doing because it is the ONLY way of life they know. To be ashamed would mean that they have a point of comparison.

Very interesting. Though it makes Diana herself uglier. But, wouldn't the immortals remember life before and have other societies to compare themselves to?

[Rob_Olivera]

Very interesting. Though it makes Diana herself uglier. But, wouldn't the immortals remember life before and have other societies to compare themselves to?

If they're procreating, that would demand a re-definition of "immortals". And no, I don't think that remembering something from 3000-4000 years ago would hold much water. Why not? Because their alternatives are many, and they chose that path. Think about it. Tell me if it doesn't make sense. They could very easily have drugged the men with some herbs from the island... pretended to be regular women on sailboats.. etc... No one had to "know" they're immortal amazons out to replenish a dying society. Their hatred and cruelty towards men speak for itslef.

Whether Diana agrees with their actions may be another case altogether, and in this continuity it may or may not play a part as to why she left in the first place. Maybe seeing Steve Trevor (a man) for the first time is what teaches her that all life is worth preserving.

[Mecegirl]

No AmWonder.. I think if she knows about the raids at all, she knows the whole story. We keep thinking of things to shield her from having ignored it, but if she knew... she knew! At any rate, that is my idea. There is no need for anyone on that island to be "ashamed" about what they're doing because it is the ONLY way of life they know. To be ashamed would mean that they have a point of comparison.

Obviously she doesn't know the whole story because she didn't know about the male children. But if she did know about the raids or was told about the raids why didn't the other Amazons tell her about her brothers? If they are not ashamed why claim that they only had female children because of divine intervention?

[Rob_Olivera]

Obviously she doesn't know the whole story because she didn't know about the male children. But if she did know about the raids or was told about the raids why didn't the other Amazons tell her about her brothers? If they are not ashamed why claim that they only had female children because of divine intervention?

That part of it I blame on the writer, not being a bit more clear in her meaning and source of her confusion. Who knows what happened to that one amazon that didn't want her male child removed? Maybe they consider that mutiny and punishable by death. These are only guesses, of course... but more believable than to think she was ignorant of the most important customs of her people especiallly being their Princess.

[slvn]

If they're procreating, that would demand a re-definition of "immortals".

We already know that they can be killed (though they apparently can live forever if not killed). And we know they spend their time training as warriors. So if they are involved in wars or monster-laying that we haven't learned about yet, and if they suffer a lot of casualties, then that would explain why they need to procreate.

Why not? Because their alternatives are many, and they chose that path. Think about it. Tell me if it doesn't make sense. They could very easily have drugged the men with some herbs from the island... pretended to be regular women on sailboats.. etc... No one had to "know" they're immortal amazons out to replenish a dying society. Their hatred and cruelty towards men speak for itslef.

I agree that they had alternatives, but that's why I think that they might feel shame. If they can imagine alternative but are choosing cruelty and hatred, then they do have comparison-points, even if they are only hypothetical ones. What we don't know is why they choose this path of "hatred and cruelty" and how much internal conflict they have (or don't have) about it.