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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    She's now become the last survivor of a lost race that was destroyed by her enemies. Conflict with the gods, and revenge on the gods, is now at least one of her motivations. She carries a lot more large weapons now than she used to, even. And she is, even if unwillingly, even if temporarily, espoused to Hades. All of these traits remind me of characters like Avengelyne, Zealot, or Lady Death, and I do count them as bad-girl clichés.

    Wonder Woman differs from Superman and Batman by coming from a supportive environment free from tragedy. The essence of bad-girl is that the character is a product of tragedy; their reaction to that tragedy is the key to their motivations.
    Well, Diana isn't coming from any tragedy; she's just receiving a bunch of revelations; I think the better word to describe what Diana as currently going through is a mild form of tribulation; tribulations are bound to happen to someone at some point in their lives.

    Simply because the Amazons were not who they appeared to be at first light to Diana has no barring on rather her past at Paradise Island was still an existence of tranquility. As I said, it just simply means that she was raised in a bubble that was the palace; another point that was made was that it's very likely that a mistrust of men was part of her psyche on Paradise Island; it's just an issue that no writers seem to want to portray Diana as she truly is, someone who mistrust men and had to grow out of it by intermixing with men; I'm sure, or it would be sensible, that men got involved with Diana and help groom her out of that way of thinking (but this could have involved her taking some lumps along the way; doesn't have to be completely of the tutelage type; to an extent, even Dr. Psycho could serve this role of helping Diana integrate into the wider world and I would have used Dr. Psycho; I think Dr. Psycho is a very important character in Diana's list and his potential hasn't been fully realized yet); doesn't mean that it's fully complete, but it was at least a start.
    Last edited by dshipp17; 05-13-2012 at 12:53 PM.

  2. #182
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
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    Steve, I'm personally done with trying to convince you of anything. Your mind is fixed on being negative about this, you make assumptions about the book and character and you dont like Azzarello's writing style. Which is fine. I dont know why we're all here trying to convince you otherwise or defend the book, or why we're all going around in circles.

    This is the complete antithesis of the Batgirl threads where there's one supporter of the book fighting dozens of haters and the threads always go round in circles.

    I'll just let the book itself explain what's going on with Diana and her story. Whether she will marry Hades or not. I am not going to keep trying to convince you that she wont, or that DC isnt trying to ruin her. Feel free to believe that. As others have pointed out, stripping the character of everything she has and rebuilding her is a common trope, and her failing to save the day from issue #1, or making mistakes is something that even Marston did. So i'm letting this story unfold and speak for itself. We'll also get a #0 issue in September which ought to deal with her origin.


    If this all goes to s*** i'll be the first to say that Steve was right.
    If it goes well, i wouldnt have wasted my time trying to convince Steve that he was wrong.
    Last edited by Dr. Hurt; 05-13-2012 at 12:53 PM.

  3. #183
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
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    Also, i understand that a lot of you want to see WW all perfectly happy, with the nigh perfect amazons being all lovely on their paradise island and Diana stopping villains without much of a sweat. Some even want her to stop those villains before they even do anything bad so that the DCU will be a happy, cheerful place.

    This is clearly a darker book. Azzarello is trying to create some conflict, to push Diana's buttons and bring out some emotions out of her, and to push her forward. If anything it's really great how Diana remains so steadfast even though her world is crumbling around her. It's a different approach. But whining about this darkness or this kind of approach is like whining in a Batman Inc thread that Batman isnt fighting mobsters in dark alleys.

  4. #184
    The Mad Artist RMAN63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    Also, i understand that a lot of you want to see WW all perfectly happy, with the nigh perfect amazons being all lovely on their paradise island and Diana stopping villains without much of a sweat. Some even want her to stop those villains before they even do anything bad so that the DCU will be a happy, cheerful place.

    This is clearly a darker book. Azzarello is trying to create some conflict, to push Diana's buttons and bring out some emotions out of her, and to push her forward. If anything it's really great how Diana remains so steadfast even though her world is crumbling around her. It's a different approach. But whining about this darkness or this kind of approach is like whining in a Batman Inc thread that Batman isnt fighting mobsters in dark alleys.
    So far what I've seen in relation to Diana's reaction upon being given news, and horrible events (daddy-zeus, amazons and mom "dead"?, and revelation of the procreative means adopted by P.Island is a simple:

    "Hmm? Grrrr. Ok."

    She hasn't reacted to any of it as far as I can tell. I'm HOPING that she will have some time to react to, or discuss, any or all of that has happened and that she has found out! I realize she's busy at the moment... but, when she gets a breather it would be nice to have someone to talk to about this, or address it even.

  5. #185

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    ... This is the complete antithesis of the Batgirl threads where there's one supporter of the book fighting dozens of haters and the threads always go round in circles...
    This one cracked me up because I've seen some rather negative views from you regarding Babs-Batgirl in those threads, and you didn't seem all that open to discussing the positives.

    I do this, too. I think many of us do. We voice complaints about that which we don't like. Somebody else saying, "but this is what I like about it" doesn't change our minds very often, does it? We all have different tastes, different expectations, etc. - so, since we're starting from different places, it's not surprising we come to differing conclusions.
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
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  6. #186

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post
    ... "Hmm? Grrrr. Ok."...
    lol. To be fair, I quite liked the scene with her stoned mum, and she has talked about it a little with Zola (am I the only one who sings "Lola" everytime Zola's name appears?).
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
    - Longfellow

  7. #187
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post
    So far what I've seen in relation to Diana's reaction upon being given news, and horrible events (daddy-zeus, amazons and mom "dead"?, and revelation of the procreative means adopted by P.Island is a simple:

    "Hmm? Grrrr. Ok."

    She hasn't reacted to any of it as far as I can tell. I'm HOPING that she will have some time to react to, or discuss, any or all of that has happened and that she has found out! I realize she's busy at the moment... but, when she gets a breather it would be nice to have someone to talk to about this, or address it even.
    When she found out about Zeus she comfronted her mother with anger and then took her frustration on trees and Aleka.
    Then "shared" her pain by going to that club.
    She then talked about her family with Zola after the club, which calmed her down and made her appreciate her mother.
    And when she found out about the manazons she almost broke out in tears.

    So i wouldnt say she hasnt reacted.

    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    This one cracked me up because I've seen some rather negative views from you regarding Babs-Batgirl in those threads, and you didn't seem all that open to discussing the positives.

    I do this, too. I think many of us do. We voice complaints about that which we don't like. Somebody else saying, "but this is what I like about it" doesn't change our minds very often, does it? We all have different tastes, different expectations, etc. - so, since we're starting from different places, it's not surprising we come to differing conclusions.
    When i dont like something, i voice my opinion. If someone can change my mind, i'm happy to. But swarming into the BG threads to convince that one poster that the book is bad, or swarming in the WW threads to convince someone that the book is good or that Azzarello doesnt want to ruin her, or that she isnt going to be Hades' wife, or whatever is just... a waste of time.

    - Diana is grimdark and she will marry Hades and be even more grimdark.
    - But she just gave a speech about the importance of life.
    - No, she'll marry him because Azz wants to stab us and twist the knife.

    and so i'm like:
    - whatever. See ya.

    We cant force that one poster to follow the rest of us and that's fine. I'm just venting out my frustration. It's why i just pop in the BG threads, voice my opinion, read a few posts, and then leave Arnoldo and the rest of the guys trying to convince that one poster that the book he likes is bad.

    And that's why i'm gonna let Steve believe that Diana will marry Hades and will become some grimdark warrior puppet of his. Cause in less than a week we'll find out what will happen anyway.
    Last edited by Dr. Hurt; 05-13-2012 at 01:50 PM.

  8. #188
    Mark Millar Licks Goats BeccaBlast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    ... and she has talked about it a little with Zola (am I the only one who sings "Lola" everytime Zola's name appears?).
    You aren't now; and for that, you must be punished severely -- into loving submission, of course.
    Some days a girl wants to ride ponies. Some days a girl wants to punch tanks. Today ... is a tank day.

  9. #189
    The Mad Artist RMAN63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    lol. To be fair, I quite liked the scene with her stoned mum, and she has talked about it a little with Zola (am I the only one who sings "Lola" everytime Zola's name appears?).
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiUCS...e_gdata_player

    I think Barry calls her Lola, too. Don't worry about it! ;)

    The scene with her stoned mom was indeed very good! One of the finer moments of this entire Wonder Woman run as far as I'm concerned! I've seen better elsewhere, but here? That one is my pick!

  10. #190

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeccaBlast View Post
    You aren't now; and for that, you must be punished severely -- into loving submission, of course.
    I'm ok with this.
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
    - Longfellow

  11. #191

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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    ... It's a new take, but I personally don't believe it destroys the old take; the back issues are still there...
    This always feels like such a dismissive argument. Don't we all want new stories that we can enjoy, too?

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    ... And Wonder Woman herself still embodies female empowerment.
    If I may, would you care to elaborate how you see this? I'm honestly interested.

    Again, if I may, I hope you include Azzarello's addtions and how they help her embody female empowerment, esp how her "power" now comes primarily from daddy (mommy and daddy's genes are not equal her). Even her role in this story is geared much more by her relationship to her father, isn't it?

    Note: I'm not saying she isn't still a strong female character.
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
    - Longfellow

  12. #192
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    Note: I'm not saying she isn't still a strong female character.
    See, that's it. You're truly empowered when you are a strong person and just live your life. The more WW insisted on preaching about women and empowerment and this and that, the more i felt she had an inferiority complex or was a feminazi (depending on the story).

    Cant she just BE a strong independent woman without telling us about it every chance she gets? Do we need another scene where some housewife puts her in her place? You know that scene where they tell her about the responsibilities and joys of being a mother, taking care of your house and your children which doesnt mean that you are dominated by your husband. God how i love those. This too:


  13. #193
    Roll up the PARTITION plz Imraith Nimphais's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    This always feels like such a dismissive argument. Don't we all want new stories that we can enjoy, too?



    If I may, would you care to elaborate how you see this? I'm honestly interested.

    Again, if I may, I hope you include Azzarello's addtions and how they help her embody female empowerment, esp how her "power" now comes primarily from daddy (mommy and daddy's genes are not equal her). Even her role in this story is geared much more by her relationship to her father, isn't it?

    Note: I'm not saying she isn't still a strong female character.
    If I may...
    The only relevance Zeus has to Diana is the fact that she only recently found out that he is her (absent for all of her life) father.
    And while she's become embroiled in her "quest" to protect Zola and her unborn child (fathered by Zeus) and the machinations of the other Gods to usurp Zeus' throne she herself did not directly and deliberately set out to to be Zeus' champion...(although that may very well be the case when all is said and done)...in fact I believe she truly does not give a flying fig about Zeus' whereabouts.
    She embodies "female empowerment" here (in part) by her caring, nurturing and protective stance towards Zola against the forces that would seek to do Zola harm.

    query: Where does it say in the past eight issues that her powers are now derived from her father? (I am not saying that you are wrong to surmise this but...)
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  14. #194
    The Mad Artist RMAN63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imraith Nimphais View Post
    If I may...
    The only relevance Zeus has to Diana is the fact that she only recently found out that he is her (absent for all of her life) father.
    And while she's become embroiled in her "quest" to protect Zola and her unborn child (fathered by Zeus) and the machinations of the other Gods to usurp Zeus' throne she herself did not directly and deliberately set out to to be Zeus' champion...(although that may very well be the case when all is said and done)...in fact I believe she truly does not give a flying fig about Zeus' whereabouts.
    She embodies "female empowerment" here (in part) by her caring, nurturing and protective stance towards Zola against the forces that would seek to do Zola harm.

    query: Where does it say in the past eight issues that her powers are now derived from her father? (I am not saying that you are wrong to surmise this but...)

    It doesn't say her powers are a product of Zeus, but since they are no longer a "gift" from the other Gods and goddesses, where else would they be from? Personally, I think that her powers are because of her godly parent is just to be taken for granted. Otherwise there is still yet another mystery in the horizon regarding Wonder woman.

  15. #195
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imraith Nimphais View Post
    If I may...
    The only relevance Zeus has to Diana is the fact that she only recently found out that he is her (absent for all of her life) father.
    And while she's become embroiled in her "quest" to protect Zola and her unborn child (fathered by Zeus) and the machinations of the other Gods to usurp Zeus' throne she herself did not directly and deliberately set out to to be Zeus' champion...(although that may very well be the case when all is said and done)...in fact I believe she truly does not give a flying fig about Zeus' whereabouts.
    She embodies "female empowerment" here (in part) by her caring, nurturing and protective stance towards Zola against the forces that would seek to do Zola harm.

    query: Where does it say in the past eight issues that her powers are now derived from her father? (I am not saying that you are wrong to surmise this but...)
    Well said. About your question, i think it's obvious that her powers come from Zeus, since Hippolyta has none. Heracles, Perseus, etc had powers, Lennox has powers, so it's safe to assume that her powers have the same origin.

    But i like it. Her character was built by her mother, her powers came from her father. It's like this isnt sexist anymore!

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