Results 1 to 13 of 13
  1. #1
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    221B Baker Street
    Posts
    18,005

    Default Was the Joker Right in TDK?

    This is obviously an old topic, but I don't think I remember ever having an in-depth discussion or argument about it, so I thought I'd pose the question here. Is societal order really just an illusion? Are people, at their core, ready to abandon ethics for darwinian survival?

    After all Batman had to make Joker lose by basically lying about what really happened to Dent.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,570

    Default

    I don't think he was totally right or totally wrong. There are some people who obey the laws because they're the laws, and others who legitimately have a moral stake in it. I think Batman just did what he did to spare Gotham the loss of hope it might have learning the news of Dent as opposed to fearing it'd cause total anarchic Darwinism, and I think the whole thing with the ships was supposed to indicate the Joker wasn't totally right. He put them in a position to "eat each other" and they didn't do it.

  3. #3
    Return of the Jedi Last1oftheJedi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Yesteryear
    Posts
    168

    Default

    Well, if we believe TDK, then we accept that no, at our core, we're all actually just trying to do the best we can. It's like Batman said, you're trying to do what? Prove deep down people are as evil as you? The answer was no. Joker doesn't accept this, because, well, he's nuts. But I agree with another nuts guy, Batman.
    Deep down, we're just trying to do right. Sometimes, not everyone is abiding by this, but I think that's a minority, elsewise, things would be way worse than they are.
    I'm not saying the world is perfect, but realistically, it's only a few bad apples that make a bunch look bad.
    Also, while lying is IMHO the never the right answer, I think Bats felt that if people saw Havery as a criminal, it would take away a lot of hope. So, he took the blame, because the Joker already made him out to be a bad guy, and it was a quick fix.
    Was there a better solution, not without a reveal of identity, which would've brought more havok to those he loved, screwed over his corporate influence so as Bruce he could continue to help Gotham the way his father did and would've wanted. So, he made the hard call. Took the bullet, so to speak.
    I was playin' in the beginnin'. The rules all changed. I've been chewed up, and spit out, and booed off stage. - Eminem
    I dare you to make less sense - Dean Venture
    Squirrel Tactic!- Dale Gribble

  4. #4
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    221B Baker Street
    Posts
    18,005

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Last1oftheJedi View Post
    Was there a better solution, not without a reveal of identity, which would've brought more havok to those he loved, screwed over his corporate influence so as Bruce he could continue to help Gotham the way his father did and would've wanted. So, he made the hard call. Took the bullet, so to speak.
    I'm not criticizing Batman for taking the fall. I'm saying that the fact that he had to do that for the Joker's mission to fail in a way shows that Joker isn't wrong.

  5. #5
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    7,537

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    This is obviously an old topic, but I don't think I remember ever having an in-depth discussion or argument about it, so I thought I'd pose the question here. Is societal order really just an illusion? Are people, at their core, ready to abandon ethics for darwinian survival?

    After all Batman had to make Joker lose by basically lying about what really happened to Dent.
    The thing with Dent was to show that when a society is put to the test, most people will hold their virtue but some few wont. Like, not everywhere took to the streets in search for that accountant who the Joker wanted dead or he'd blow up a hospital. Some did. Some forgot their morals pretty easily.

    And Dent was used as an opposite to Batman. They both lost Rachel but Batman didnt lose his mind or morality.

    In real life though? I think even the good people would have tried to blow up the prisoners' boat. There's no way that both boats would just throw away the detonator. At least one of them would go for it.

  6. #6
    Return of the Jedi Last1oftheJedi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Yesteryear
    Posts
    168

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    I'm not criticizing Batman for taking the fall. I'm saying that the fact that he had to do that for the Joker's mission to fail in a way shows that Joker isn't wrong.
    Okay, yeah, I see that. Joker did state without "hero Harvey", Gotham would lose hope. And that's exactly what Batman then was forced to prevent. You're right on that. I totally agree, thank you. You opened my eyes a bit, I appericate it. ^.^
    I was playin' in the beginnin'. The rules all changed. I've been chewed up, and spit out, and booed off stage. - Eminem
    I dare you to make less sense - Dean Venture
    Squirrel Tactic!- Dale Gribble

  7. #7
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Zanzibar
    Posts
    3,543

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    This is obviously an old topic, but I don't think I remember ever having an in-depth discussion or argument about it, so I thought I'd pose the question here. Is societal order really just an illusion? Are people, at their core, ready to abandon ethics for darwinian survival?

    After all Batman had to make Joker lose by basically lying about what really happened to Dent.
    Ethics are actually Darwinian. feelings of empathy, compassion and acts of altruism are bred into our evolutionary framework. One of the philosophers I respect the most, is Thomas Hobbes, who was the first to put forward in Western thinking the 'Social Contract,' which is a though experiment where if there existed no bonds of fellowship, whether imposed by a state or by tradition, there would be a 'war of every man against every man, this also in consequent; that nothing can be unjust. The notions of right and wrong, justice and injustice have there no place. Where there is no common power, there is no law, where no law, no injustice. Force, and fraud, are in war the cardinal virtues.' Because life in a society would be terrible without recognizing a law, Hobbes argued men would be in favor of sacrificing their liberties for security.

  8. #8
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    7,537

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Reginleif View Post
    Ethics are actually Darwinian. feelings of empathy, compassion and acts of altruism are bred into our evolutionary framework. One of the philosophers I respect the most, is Thomas Hobbes, who was the first to put forward in Western thinking the 'Social Contract,' which is a though experiment where if there existed no bonds of fellowship, whether imposed by a state or by tradition, there would be a 'war of every man against every man, this also in consequent; that nothing can be unjust. The notions of right and wrong, justice and injustice have there no place. Where there is no common power, there is no law, where no law, no injustice. Force, and fraud, are in war the cardinal virtues.' Because life in a society would be terrible without recognizing a law, Hobbes argued men would be in favor of sacrificing their liberties for security.
    You need to post that in the WW board where people are judging a society that is stuck in antiquity with 21st century western world standards.

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    In real life though? I think even the good people would have tried to blow up the prisoners' boat. There's no way that both boats would just throw away the detonator. At least one of them would go for it.
    I think it depends. The situation was the prisoner's dilemma, and logically, both sides made the choice to optimize their position by not hurting the other.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Rod G's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Miami,Fl
    Posts
    1,353

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Last1oftheJedi View Post
    Okay, yeah, I see that. Joker did state without "hero Harvey", Gotham would lose hope. And that's exactly what Batman then was forced to prevent. You're right on that. I totally agree, thank you. You opened my eyes a bit, I appericate it. ^.^

    But Gotham DID lose hope.
    Show me a bitter nazi and I'll show you a sour kraut.




    Check out my gallery at :http://r-gonz.deviantart.com/

  11. #11
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    11,997

    Default

    No, it did lose Harvey himself. But it didn't lose the hope of a better tomorrow which is why Bruce and Jim covered up Harvey's actions. If it came out that Harvey went rogue because of the loss of Rachel and his disfigurement, Bruce feared that the city would go right back to where it was a year ago and might never recover. This is what takes us into "The Dark Knight Rises".

  12. #12
    Senior Member Rod G's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Miami,Fl
    Posts
    1,353

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mat001 View Post
    No, it did lose Harvey himself. But it didn't lose the hope of a better tomorrow which is why Bruce and Jim covered up Harvey's actions. If it came out that Harvey went rogue because of the loss of Rachel and his disfigurement, Bruce feared that the city would go right back to where it was a year ago and might never recover. This is what takes us into "The Dark Knight Rises".
    Considering how messed up Gotham is, Bats and Gordon might not have bothered . . .
    Show me a bitter nazi and I'll show you a sour kraut.




    Check out my gallery at :http://r-gonz.deviantart.com/

  13. #13
    Senior Member Choppa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    4,146

    Default

    This has been discussed to death and is pretty obvious. I don't why so many people are confused by this.

    Of course the Joker was right. That's why Batman took the wrap for Harvey's murders.
    "John Stewart. LAME! ...this guy having a ring is like giving the batmobile to a blind old woman with her left leg in a cast."

    "Pym biting Blobs head off seems like something that would have happened when i was ten years old and playing with action figures."

    "i always assumed that [the blob] had the same powers as his 616 counterpart because, if simply being a huge fat guy was enough to be considered a mutant then there sure are a lot of mutants in 'real life'. "

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •