Marvel Declares "No More Avengers" With "AvX" Act Two Teaser

[RDMacQ]

Sucks huh? Kinda like how Dark Phoenix was Jean Grey...until she wasn't...until she was...or was she?

And no, Utopia was never said to be a sovereign nation recognized by other countries. It's in San Francisco bay for cripes sake. If you can throw a rock from one side of a rock to another, it's probably not a sovereign nation.

Hell, do they even have a flag? Everyone knows you have to have a flag to be a nation.

Hey, don't knock it. It worked for Molossia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Molossia

[gregyo]

Sucks huh? Kinda like how Dark Phoenix was Jean Grey...until she wasn't...until she was...or was she?

And no, Utopia was never said to be a sovereign nation recognized by other countries. It's in San Francisco bay for cripes sake. If you can throw a rock from one side of a rock to another, it's probably not a sovereign nation.

Hell, do they even have a flag? Everyone knows you have to have a flag to be a nation.

I don't know much about Jean Grey or the Dark Phoenix.

I understand you believe that, but every comic up until AvX supported the opposite. Hell, when Cyclops did stand before the UN, he wasn't a representative of the US, he said he was representing Utopia. And I don't think the UN would have met to hear from a pretend country.

Your point about it's location makes more sense, but that raises even more questions. Why don't people on Utopia pay taxes? Why is there no government presence on Utopia? No inspectors to make sure the buildings are up to code? Furthermore, Norman Osborn wasn't exactly happy when Utopia showed up, so why didn't he just invade like the Avengers did? Since they were fighting the government at the time, the X-men could easily have been considered domestic terrorists.

It's sloppy writing is what it is. Utopia was sovereign until it wasn't convenient for the writers.

[YagamiFire]

I don't know much about Jean Grey or the Dark Phoenix.

I understand you believe that, but every comic up until AvX supported the opposite. Hell, when Cyclops did stand before the UN, he wasn't a representative of the US, he said he was representing Utopia. And I don't think the UN would have met to hear from a pretend country.

Your point about it's location makes more sense, but that raises even more questions. Why don't people on Utopia pay taxes? Why is there no government presence on Utopia? No inspectors to make sure the buildings are up to code? Furthermore, Norman Osborn wasn't exactly happy when Utopia showed up, so why didn't he just invade like the Avengers did? Since they were fighting the government at the time, the X-men could easily have been considered domestic terrorists.

It's sloppy writing is what it is. Utopia was sovereign until it wasn't convenient for the writers.

And this is the issue with a bunch of X-men stuff...endless retcons upon retcons among forgotten or ignored storylines. It's a trend...just like the Phoenix itself whose continuity is essentially a joke. Lets not even get into Xorn.

Hey, don't knock it. It worked for Molossia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Molossia

That guy and his country win. They win everything. Ever. The end. This thread is NOW about Molossia. Begin.

[RDMacQ]

That guy and his country win. They win everything. Ever. The end. This thread is NOW about Molossia. Begin.

Hey, that's nothing. You should see how the guy deals with an invasion.

http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/vid...kassia-part-01
http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/vid...ph-and-treacle
http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/vid...glorious-glory
http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/vid...ing-of-the-end
http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/vid...l-of-the-risen
http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/vid...d-shit-happens

Uh, a bit of a warning. Viewing all of those might take a while.

[mikekerrIII]

Context is your friend.

I was pointing out that sovereignty is at least partially dependent on one's ability to maintain it. Utopia is not sovereign.

Then part Europe are not sovereign since some countries have repeatedly shown an inability to defend their sovereignty

What is unreasonable about people who read the X-books think that a nation is sovereign becasue it is called so it the books?

Is there anything in the books that states that is not so, there are things that state it is sovereign. Was there a subtle retcon somewhere or was Breevort just not keeping up with the X-books like he showed in the AvX telepathy interview here on CBR?

[chariset]

Hell, do they even have a flag? Everyone knows you have to have a flag to be a nation.

Hehee.. "Do you have a FLAG?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTduy7Qkvk8 (language not safe for work)

[Exo]

She is potntential an even match for The Pf becasue it has been shown that if she is not the Host she can mimic it and match it since that is what she does.

You're banking the safety of all life on Earth on potential? That's horrible.

I don't think the magnitude of Hope's powers would even come close to that of the PF's. The extent of which is impossible to measure (what was it again? The potential total sum of all future life in the universe?).

I'd choose the time gem over the mutant abilities of a disobedient 16 year old little girl... and I hate time-traveling!

All the other players with enough power to meet it have been taken off the stage so this play makes sense, Handing this problem to Reed and Franklin Richards with Legion as additional "muscle" makes more sense than the Avengers playing with a problem they don't understand or have nearly enough power to do something about it.

I understand that the underlining message in superhero comic books, violence being the solution to the problem, but physically beating your opponent into submission only works 99% of the time.

This isn't one of those times.

[tg1982]

Hehee.. "Do you have a FLAG?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTduy7Qkvk8 (language not safe for work)

I love Eddie Izzard. "No flag, no land!"


Sovereign nations/states have a form of government, laws, infrastructure, commerce, embassies, constitutions, and most importantly recognition as such from other nations. No one has told me what other nation in Marvel recognizes Utopia as a sovereign natio/state? I asked for it like over 10 pages ago, and nothing. I wonder why?

[Lascoden]

I love Eddie Izzard. "No flag, no land!"


Sovereign nations/states have a form of government, laws, infrastructure, commerce, embassies, constitutions, and most importantly recognition as such from other nations. No one has told me what other nation in Marvel recognizes Utopia as a sovereign natio/state? I asked for it like over 10 pages ago, and nothing. I wonder why?

Well, we don't know. Not for certain. Marvel has left it ambiguous, using whatever fits the story the best. Just like whether SHIELD is US or UN. Which ever the writer prefers.

Besides, I don't know how much of a difference that would make. Taiwan and Palastine are recognized as nations but many, but they are still ambiguous.

[JaggedFel]

Then part Europe are not sovereign since some countries have repeatedly shown an inability to defend their sovereignty

What is unreasonable about people who read the X-books think that a nation is sovereign becasue it is called so it the books?

Is there anything in the books that states that is not so, there are things that state it is sovereign. Was there a subtle retcon somewhere or was Breevort just not keeping up with the X-books like he showed in the AvX telepathy interview here on CBR?

IMO, the point is logically despite what Marvel says it makes no sense.

1. The US would never surrender Territory willingly. Utopia is clearly in SF Bay off the coast of a major US City.
2. Utopia has no constitution, no passports, no currency, no flag etc
3. Utopia has no self sufficiency. it has no agriculture or manufacturing or any economy. Lack of Agriculture makes sense crops don't grow on pure iron.
4. Utopians don't have to go through customs to get into the US.
5. UN is not going to recognize a country without US approval especially one in US's territorial waters.
6. Utopia has no government bureaucracy of any kind besides Scott as Leader.

That is just off the top of my head. Genosha makes sense, Utopia does not.

Much less qualified then even Palestine or Taiwan.

[tg1982]

IMO, the point is logically despite what Marvel says it makes no sense.

1. The US would never surrender Territory willingly. Utopia is clearly in SF Bay off the coast of a major US City.
2. Utopia has no constitution, no passports, no currency, no flag etc
3. Utopia has no self sufficiency. it has no agriculture or manufacturing or any economy. Lack of Agriculture makes sense crops don't grow on pure iron.
4. Utopians don't have to go through customs to get into the US.
5. UN is not going to recognize a country without US approval especially one in US's territorial waters.
6. Utopia has no government bureaucracy of any kind besides Scott as Leader.

That is just off the top of my head. Genosha makes sense, Utopia does not.

Much less qualified then even Palestine or Taiwan.

Thank you! I've been trying to say this for days.

[Lascoden]

I think you're forgetting one important fact: It's a comic book. Real world laws don't determine the story. The writers and editors do. If they say it's a nation, it is. If they refuse to say whether it is or isn't, and leave it ambiguous, then it would depend on the writer.

[gregyo]

IMO, the point is logically despite what Marvel says it makes no sense.

1. The US would never surrender Territory willingly. Utopia is clearly in SF Bay off the coast of a major US City.
2. Utopia has no constitution, no passports, no currency, no flag etc
3. Utopia has no self sufficiency. it has no agriculture or manufacturing or any economy. Lack of Agriculture makes sense crops don't grow on pure iron.
4. Utopians don't have to go through customs to get into the US.
5. UN is not going to recognize a country without US approval especially one in US's territorial waters.
6. Utopia has no government bureaucracy of any kind besides Scott as Leader.

That is just off the top of my head. Genosha makes sense, Utopia does not.

Much less qualified then even Palestine or Taiwan.

Why don't citizens of Utopia pay taxes? Why are there no government building inspectors to make sure that the big effing asteroid off the coast of California isn't dangerous? Why would the UN convene to hear Scott speak if he was only the leader of a fake nation-island? Why didn't Osborn have his Avengers and HAMMER simply invade the thing like the Avengers saw fit to do?

And obviously Utopia is somewhat recognized, or else the UN would not have convened solely to listen to its representative.

Literally, the only argument that Utopia is part of the US is it's location. The US didn't give up any land. It's a friggin' asteroid.

[Old Sparky]

I do think it's worth it to do at least ONE story where they bust out the gems as an uber plot device to save the day. It's kinda cool that they have such an ace in the hole tucked away in their back pocket.

But afterwards yeah, I think they need to come up with a more valid reason why they're not using them.

I thought, after that whole Infinity Gauntlet thing, that they had come up with a valid reason... the Living Tribunal decreed that the gems would never work together again. But then someone had a story idea which ignored that and now they work together again. When it comes to cosmic stuff, nothing is ever certain... its kind of like a story they did with Thanos gaining the power of God (not through a device like the cosmic cube or infinity gauntlet) and realizing that he didn't so much achieve it as it was left for him to find because reality was coming undone over the numerous resurrections over the years (starting with Wonder Man) screwing things up. Thanos was able to use the power to fix everything but through self-sacrifice and the idea that no one would ever be able to come back from death again... except people keep coming back and Thanos wasn't as self-sacrificed as we were led to believe since he kept on showing up, too. Whatever reason they come up with for not using the gems again would only be valid until someone else comes along with another story that messes it up.

Honestly? Neither. The best plan is a compromise that takes all-due precautions of moving the would-be host off planet and to the Phoenix. Then the bonding can occur and everyone can move on from there.

If I HAVE to choose one or the other though? Looking just at the plans as they are? I'd go with Cap I guess if only because if the Phoenix WANTS to bond with Hope it will still reach her and bond. I do not think they could stop it (short of using the infinity gems) so I'd rather (from a meta-standpoint) have the bonding take place off-planet so if stuff DOES go awry, the earth is not the first head up on the chopping block.

I only side with Cap's plan for THAT reason though...and not really for any technical merits of the plan itself...just the incidental "Not near earth during potential bonding" part.

I'm sure people are probably shocked I'm not just 100% behind Cap...but, like I said, I approach this stuff logically..not emotionally.

EDIT: I'll also add that I think BOTH plans are ham-strung and necessarily kinda stupid and incomplete just to create the actual reason for the teams to fight...if Cap and Cyke are the two greatest tactical minds on the planet (as they are often tauted) the leadership in the MU is thoroughly retarded.

The thing is, both needed to be stupid to facilitate the conflict... which only proves this whole event was a bad idea and that Marvel has run out of ideas and is throwing garbage at the wall in hopes that the pretty colors will attract people to buy buy buy. And it worked! People are buying, so it appears that even garbage ideas are now good. I hate humanity. I wish the Phoenix were real... and that it could be killed... just to end life for everyone here, because I think humanity isn't worth saving.

So, it sounds like the best plan would have taken elements from the plans of both sides. Prepare Hope to receive and host the Phoenix (Cyke) and then take her somewhere safely off world to bond with it (Cap).

Communication, people. =P

Yeah, I thought that was a good idea too... as long as Cryclops isn't involved in the process, because no matter how much good he's done in the past, he will forevermore be the ugly stepchild whining about his messiah being taken. Sure, he's been a good leader in the past, but I think the stress was too much for him and he'll never be a capable, competent leader again. Time to start looking for new candidates.

IMO, the point is logically despite what Marvel says it makes no sense.

1. The US would never surrender Territory willingly. Utopia is clearly in SF Bay off the coast of a major US City.
2. Utopia has no constitution, no passports, no currency, no flag etc
3. Utopia has no self sufficiency. it has no agriculture or manufacturing or any economy. Lack of Agriculture makes sense crops don't grow on pure iron.
4. Utopians don't have to go through customs to get into the US.
5. UN is not going to recognize a country without US approval especially one in US's territorial waters.
6. Utopia has no government bureaucracy of any kind besides Scott as Leader.

That is just off the top of my head. Genosha makes sense, Utopia does not.

Much less qualified then even Palestine or Taiwan.

I think what happened with Utopia is that Cyclops declared it as a sovereign nation and the U.S. stepped back from the issue while they decided what to do. While no one ever said Utopia wasn't sovereign, only the mutants themselves acknowledged that it was... but they don't really have the authority to do that. The U.S. government needed to look at political backlash of condemning what constituted a nearly extinct people and how both the American people and the world would react to continued perceived persecution (yes, perceived... just because mutants have been persecuted doesn't mean every action against them is persecution or even anti-mutant.) So the current administration sits on its hands and watches, maybe hoping the situation will sort itself out or actively looking for a resolution that would bring Utopia under their control without looking like the big bad guys stomping on the little guys, or worse, like the "typical Americans" mentality so much of the world seems to have... concerned that they would look to other major governments like they were trying to seize power over a resource that could be used against the rest of the world.

So when Cyclops appeared at the U.N., was it because they assembled to hear the concerns being voiced from a representative of a new sovereign nation? Or was it concern because, small as they are, the people of Utopia represent a significant threat if they decided to challenge the whole freakin' world? Did anyone actually say "We recognize the Utopia's sovereign status. What is it the delegate from Utopia would like to say?" Beyond the mutants' self-proclaimed independence from the U.S., I've seen no real evidence of their sovereign status... just a bunch of self-proclaimed nonsense. And, I think now that Captain America has stepped foot onto Utopia, the mutants' dreams of self-government have been shattered because America finally put their foot down on the situation.

I think you're forgetting one important fact: It's a comic book. Real world laws don't determine the story. The writers and editors do. If they say it's a nation, it is. If they refuse to say whether it is or isn't, and leave it ambiguous, then it would depend on the writer.

And if one writer says it is and another says it isn't, then we as readers can assume its status is in question and make all kinds of logical arguments to ascertain whether or not it really is. To me, the fact that there is a question says to me that their sovereignty is largely imagined. They want it, they've stated they have it, and some people want to point to certain inaction by the U.S. government as proof of it. But its not so until its stated definitively that it is... and even then is subject to retcon.

[Old Sparky]

Why don't citizens of Utopia pay taxes? Why are there no government building inspectors to make sure that the big effing asteroid off the coast of California isn't dangerous? Why would the UN convene to hear Scott speak if he was only the leader of a fake nation-island? Why didn't Osborn have his Avengers and HAMMER simply invade the thing like the Avengers saw fit to do?

Perhaps because the government hasn't figured out how to tax them. They live on a floating asteroid off the coast of San Francisco. Do California state taxes apply? What about Federal taxes? What kind of income are they generating on Utopia to tax? They seem pretty self-sufficient over there, coming ashore for basic supplies like food. I'm sure a lot of their money comes from their own business interests which are already being taxed legitimately if operating within the continental United States.

And obviously Utopia is somewhat recognized, or else the UN would not have convened solely to listen to its representative.

Perhaps they came together to hear the representative based on sympathy for what's percieved as a dying people (since there are so few of them left after Wanda turned 90% of the mutant population into normal humans.) Or maybe they came together out of fear because of what the remaining mutants could accomplish if they chose to declare war on humanity... and being reduced in numbers as they are, mutantkind might feel backed into a corner like a frightened badger... so let's listen to what they have to say rather than provoke them.

Literally, the only argument that Utopia is part of the US is it's location. The US didn't give up any land. It's a friggin' asteroid.

Correct. Location. The land in question is a floating hunk of rock... it might as well be wood in the shape of a boat. And if someone built a huge ship and floated it a little ways off the coast but still in U.S. waters and declared the boat a sovereign nation, do you really believe the boat would be considered so by the U.S. government? The only reason I think the idea hasn't been flat out squashed is because of trying to maintain a realistic government approach to an utterly fictional situation, so the government has to approach the situation cautiously... which means it will take time.