Marvel Declares "No More Avengers" With "AvX" Act Two Teaser

[AcesX1X]

Nice dodge! See the difference is that I'm engaging in a discussion...and 7 billion lives don't hinge on the outcome of it!.

for one thing, your comments have completely ignored canon. sorry if the comics don't support your wild theories of rachel's time as the phoenix, but i still look forward to you finding the answers you're looking for. there is nothing that has ever been printed to suggest rachel never had full control of the phoenix, despite your spin doctoring. brian braddock and rachel both reaffirm this in the current event.

secondly, 7 billion lives are hinging on the outcome of both plans. both sides are gambling with everyone's life.

[dogmonsta]

Im calling Cable is going to be the new host

[Old Sparky]

The stuff about Cyclops is silly. If you read Second Coming, you would know that Cyclops is the guy who saved mutants from extinction. Cyclops was the guy who beat and humiliated Norman Osborn while the Avengers were hiding from him, in maybe the second most awesome moment of Dark Reign. We get it, you don't agree with his outlook on the Phoenix. Cool, a lot of people don't, but if you've read any X-books over the past five years you would know that Cyclops is a very competent and dedicated leader of his people.

I won't deny that Cyclops has had successes and is very dedicated. But since you brought up Osborn... he was also very dedicated to his job running H.A.M.M.E.R. and accomplished some good things too. But he was still mentally incompetent and should not under any circumstances have been given free reign over the nation because it was only a matter of time before it all came crashing down. I look forward to seeing Cyclops having the rug yanked out from under him after this and I don't care what good he's done for his people in the past. You know that bit where he asked Captain America where he and the Avengers were when mutants needed help? It goes both ways... yeah, he's great done stuff for mutants... but what has he done for the rest of the world? Instead of all tyhis "my people, your people" stuff, he should have found a way to unite both sides into "our people." But no, he's content for his people to get a messiah and doesn't care at all what the rest of the world thinks because mutants have always been stepped on in the past... and now mutants are gonna have their day. Yeah... sounds to me exactly why non-mutants would be distrusting or even outright afraid. He's a piss-poor choice to lead on behalf of all mutants... he seems to be shaping up to be the second coming of Magneto's old style of leadership, though. Instead of fighting a war for survival, he should be working for peace. Survival is so much easier without war.

Also, about the last part, genocide isn't cool man.

I know, and I kid. I don't know what I'd do if Squirrel Girl had been lost to Wanda's stupidity.

[AcesX1X]

It goes both ways... yeah, he's great done stuff for mutants... but what has he done for the rest of the world?.

you're kidding right? they've been the official protectors of san francisco for like four years now. they just finished chasing off a bunch of celestials from earth, rounded up a bunch of space prisoners, and defended san francisco from becoming the wild world of mister sinisters. not to mention they saved the country from a phalanx virus. and that was all in the past few weeks.

cyclops used to run x-factor remember? they were a super-team for the world, not just mutants. he's also saved the entire galaxy as an x-men more than once. please with this...

[Old Sparky]

for one thing, your comments have completely ignored canon. sorry if the comics don't support your wild theories of rachel's time as the phoenix, but i still look forward to you finding the answers you're looking for. there is nothing that has ever been printed to suggest rachel never had full control of the phoenix, despite your spin doctoring. brian braddock and rachel both reaffirm this in the current event.

Nothing to suggest she wasn't in full control, but there's also nothing to suggest that the Phoenix simply went along in agreement with how she used the power. I'm not saying either way of looking at it is necessarily correct, only that assuming she was because there's no evidence to assume otherwise is a flawed argument.

secondly, 7 billion lives are hinging on the outcome of both plans. both sides are gambling with everyone's life.

And one side is actually making a plan while the other side's "plan" is to hope for the best and assume Hope is up to the task of coping with the power and responsibility without becoming corrupted by it. I have to go, so that's my final point for the evening... on that topic. As a final note, I'd like to state the importance of capitalization. It can be the difference in helping your Uncle Jack off a horse and helping your uncle jack off a horse.

[gregyo]

I won't deny that Cyclops has had successes and is very dedicated. But since you brought up Osborn... he was also very dedicated to his job running H.A.M.M.E.R. and accomplished some good things too. But he was still mentally incompetent and should not under any circumstances have been given free reign over the nation because it was only a matter of time before it all came crashing down. I look forward to seeing Cyclops having the rug yanked out from under him after this and I don't care what good he's done for his people in the past. You know that bit where he asked Captain America where he and the Avengers were when mutants needed help? It goes both ways... yeah, he's great done stuff for mutants... but what has he done for the rest of the world? Instead of all tyhis "my people, your people" stuff, he should have found a way to unite both sides into "our people." But no, he's content for his people to get a messiah and doesn't care at all what the rest of the world thinks because mutants have always been stepped on in the past... and now mutants are gonna have their day. Yeah... sounds to me exactly why non-mutants would be distrusting or even outright afraid. He's a piss-poor choice to lead on behalf of all mutants... he seems to be shaping up to be the second coming of Magneto's old style of leadership, though. Instead of fighting a war for survival, he should be working for peace. Survival is so much easier without war.


I know, and I kid. I don't know what I'd do if Squirrel Girl had been lost to Wanda's stupidity.

Except the thing is the X-men have, in fact, saved the plant, on many occasions. Not just mutant-kind either. It's part of their "protecting the world that hates and fears them" Shtick. The most recent example being when they beat the mad celestials. Non-mutants are outright afraid of the mutants regardless of how friendly Cyclops is. During Schism, when Cyclops went before the World's leaders and asked (really nicely, by the way) that sentinels be decommissioned, the leaders questioned the sentinels' existence and called him a liar, yet once Quire showed up every country and their dog had hidden sentinels buried somewhere. I will grant you that he's probably more militaristic than he should be, but there are very documented reasons for him being that way. He has this "mutants against the world" mentality because it seems to usually be mutants against the world, with the mutants on the losing end.

Not saying Scott hasn't made mistakes, but I am saying that he is the best choice for leading the X-men.

[AcesX1X]

As a final note, I'd like to state the importance of capitalization.

sorry, but i won't compromise.

[Monty_Cristo]

Im calling Cable is going to be the new host

will he become DIRECTV?

[Viteh]

Nothing to suggest she wasn't in full control, but there's also nothing to suggest that the Phoenix simply went along in agreement with how she used the power. I'm not saying either way of looking at it is necessarily correct, only that assuming she was because there's no evidence to assume otherwise is a flawed argument.


And one side is actually making a plan while the other side's "plan" is to hope for the best and assume Hope is up to the task of coping with the power and responsibility without becoming corrupted by it. I have to go, so that's my final point for the evening... on that topic. As a final note, I'd like to state the importance of capitalization. It can be the difference in helping your Uncle Jack off a horse and helping your uncle jack off a horse.

About your first point, yes, however assuming that she was in control because there's no evidence that she wasn't isn't a flawed argument. It's the logical conclusion based on the evidence. We can see Rachel controlling the PF. However, it's possible like you mentioned, that the PF was just going along with it, but there's no evidence to support that. The burden of proof falls on the side that argues that she didn't control. Because that's the argument that goes against what it looked like. Yes, it's possible that she didn't control it, but until evidence is provided, the conclusion is that she did control it.

Actually, Cyclops was training her, that was his plan in AvX #1. If you have read NA 26, you'll see that it was the same training Fonji got. (I am guessing she succeded in controlling the PF)

[RolandJP]

will he become DIRECTV?

TIVO or NETFLIX

[mikekerrIII]

My conclusion is that the Phoenix is dangerous, beyond anyone's absolute control and should be dealt with as much precaution and wariness as possible. Not with wishful thinking.

Cap plans to kill it that is neither wariness or caution, It also total Omniversal genocide

You are assuming this. Was it explicitly stated to be the Phoenix? If it was, was this by intent or as a side-effect of its power? Was this clarified? Was the Phoenix's future desires elaborated on?[/I]

Its shown that they were associated the the Phoenix flaring , and Hope is the only thing that could stabilized the mutants that have appeared, It's not like they didn't have many books that were based on that happening

[mikekerrIII]

Again, you are the only one talking in absolutes.

I'm still trying to figure out how he or the Avengers are certain it is coming directly for Hope

I am Also trying to figure out why the Avengers think it more dangerous within a Host and how the plan to restart the Stars if they kill it.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

You know, I really want to see what Wanda has to do with this entire issue. Maybe she takes the Phoenix entity instead of Hope?

[YagamiFire]

She was shown being in control, at no point did the PF go against her wishes. So the logical thing to say there, is that she had total control. The fragment thing has been explained, so please stop using it as an argument. Like I said before, it is possible that Sparky is right and that the PF merely let Rachel think she was in controll. However, that doesn't mean that we should assume that. The evidence is Rachel controlling the PF. One could ask "what if she just thought she was in contro", but since there's no evidence that supports that, the logical conclusion is that she did control it.

Again, there is no visible difference between "totally in control" and "Phoenix agreeing with what she's doing". There is no way to discern a difference. We HAVE however, seen the Phoenix co-opt a host and exert its own will. So how do you decide if a host is "totally merged" and in "total control" or not? There is no way to discern it (or even if such a thing exists) until the Phoenix and host disagree.

Actually, I'd like you to, I don't think I've read it on other threads.

Phew...ok...fair enough. I will at the end of this response.

No, your conclusion was that Emma was a host that lost the PF, therefor every host can't control it. Aslo that because Rachel lost a fragment that means she can't control the PF once she becomes it.

Incorrect. I posited that since a host CAN lose the PF and lose control over it that it is possible that Hope will be unable to control it. It was an example. Again, Rachel is the EXCEPTION.

Ok, you have a point there. Although here you have to make a choice. Yes, Bishop's future may be the right one, but the other option is the one Cable described which is worse (1 million humans + mutants in camps vs everyone's dead)

Except both futures are only possible by ignoring the original Bishop solution...IE: smother Hope in her crib. If we are playing the "greater good" possible future game it means we solve ALL Hope problems by snuffing her.

But Jean didn't become one with the Phoenix then.

...but a person becomes ONE with the Phoenix as soon as they merge and then there is only one will right? That's what you yourself said. So is it true...or isn't it? Do they merge and become one or do they sometimes not?

I think you are just making stuff up now.

You can think that but I know that I am right because I am speaking from a point of logic rather than personal preference of emotion...especially considering I wanted the X-men to be vindicated in this event from the moment I heard of it...however, that ain't the case...

Well, the Phoenix also referred to the lights (the mutants post-second coming) as their children too, so yes, I'd say it's its intent.

And if that means that those children are the only non-genetic dead ends and the rest are to be burned away? What then?

Okay now to the disproving cosmic importance...

Keep in mind this train of logic relies on a major assumption...this assumption is a "greater good" universe where cosmic forces, by virtue of their power and importance, are beyond conventional "good & evil"...note that I myself do not prescribe to this theory in a fictional superheroic universe, but it is the defense people use for the Phoenix (which also damns it in this argument).

The Phoenix is a mass-murderer that kills without provocation. This is a fact. It kills to survive as part of a "larger plan" or purpose which, in the eyes of some, absolves it from blame. Those people also argue you cannot kill the Phoenix without dooming the universe. This is based on statements made by beings like the Watcher.

There are several problems with this. No one in the Marvel universe is all-powerful or all-knowing...the Watcher, Eternity, the Phoenix, etc are neither omnipotent nor omniscient. The only being that is is The One Above All (TOAA). We'll get back to him later. Therefore, beings like the Watcher are necessarily fallible. In addition, it is in the best interest of beings like Eternity and the Watcher to uphold the universe as it is because they are an integral part of it...therefore it is possible it is mere self-interest that motivates them.

In fact, we have an example of an abstract being snuffed...the Cancerverse. The Cancerverse was not ruined by killing Death. On the contrary, the universe became predatory, powerful and supremely dangerous. Was it different from before? Absolutely. But it was not ruined. In fact, in a universe without concrete "good and evil" it only became better because it began to spread to other universes. The Cancerverse evolved...Death was holding it back. Of course, this is an opinion and to us the Cancerverse would seem evil, but to its own residents it is wonderful and they want to spread the great gospel of immortality to others. Death is MORE of a cornerstone of the universe than the Phoenix (part of the big 3 with Eternity & Galactus, actually) and killing Death in the Cancerverse did not result in that universes destruction. So the importance of the Phoenix is being over-stated.

Now, the real nail in the coffin is TOAA. TOAA is all-powerful and all-knowing. It is infallible. It made the universe. It cannot make mistakes because its will IS reality. So now...if the Phoenix (and other cosmic beings) cannot be judged by mortals because of its level of power/knowledge/importance, than the Phoenix (and its ilk) also cannot judged TOAA because it has intellect/power/purpose that is INFINITE orders of magnitude higher than them (remember, infinite knowledge & power is infinitely more than ANYTHING not infinite). Therefore, ANYTHING that happens is the will of TOAA and no one has a right to argue with it because TOAA's desired purpose/intent is too far above any being to understand. In other words, if the Phoenix IS destroyed it is only destroyed because TOAA allows it to occur (and in fact KNEW it would occur at the beginning of time when it began the universe). If TOAA allows something to occur then it is necessarily not "bad" because TOAA's will trumps concepts of good & evil. So, you see, cosmic beings unassailable BS reasoning for getting away with genocide and other horrific crimes against sentient beings is also what damns them because they are not the highest being on the totem pole. An ant is closer in power to Eternity than Eternity is to TOAA. That is also true for knowledge and purpose.

To sum up...if the Phoenix dies it is because TOAA allowed it and in a universe where cosmic purpose trumps good or evil ANYTHING that happens is okay because TOAA is totally unknowable by any other being in existence.

So I say...kill it. Kill all the abstracts if necessary. Praise Lord Mar-vell. Fhtagn!

[infernohara]

Great synopsis. The phoenix really can't be "killed" since its whole purpose is rebirth. Anytime the X-men have "killed it", its come back. Magneto was able to give it a massive cosmic stroke and still its back good as new. So TOAA must know that it doesn't matter what is done since phoenix will always return.

Jean Grey and the phoenix are supposedly one entity now, so if anyone has complete control over the phoenix it would be her. Its to early to tell, but I think she'll be in act 3 of this unwarranted saga.