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  1. #721
    Elder Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Lotus View Post
    So Emma can read Caps mind and know that he came for Hope and that they were going to try to take her no matter what, but she couldn't shut down his mind if she really wanted to.
    That's another thing, she was going to shut down all the Avengers, she could have at that moment but she didn't until Hope was safe and I guess maybe she didn't want to be the one to start shit given her colourful background.

  2. #722
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lascoden View Post
    Cap ended any sort of negotiations when he demanded Scott to hand over a member of his family. How was Scott supposed to react to the demand? How would you prefer?
    How would I prefer Scott handled it? Again, by having Pixie or whatever teleport Hope away, then talking to Steve.

    I'm not saying Scott should necessarily hand her over to Steve gift wrapped with a bow, but there is some middle ground between that and flat out shooting at Steve that could have been attempted first.

    Again, violence shouldn't have been a last resort, not plan A. You can always fall back on that if other options fail. But the minute you decide to turn it into a fight other options basically get wiped off the table.

  3. #723
    Senior Member Lascoden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Lotus View Post
    So Emma can read Caps mind and know that he came for Hope and that they were going to try to take her no matter what, but she couldn't shut down his mind if she really wanted to.
    1. Telepathy is often used as a plot device to convince the readers. It's essentially the writer saying "This is true, go with it." See: Shen Xorn.

    2. If she shut his brain down, that would be just as much of an attack as what Scott did. She left it up to him.

  4. #724
    Elder Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lascoden View Post
    1. Telepathy is often used as a plot device to convince the readers. It's essentially the writer saying "This is true, go with it." See: Shen Xorn.

    2. If she shut his brain down, that would be just as much of an attack as what Scott did. She left it up to him.
    Her "What the hell is happening Scott" line kind of shows that she didn't want the situation to turn into a fight either. She isn't the type of character to escalate a conflict like that anyway. She's pragmatic.

  5. #725
    Senior Member Lascoden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    They ended up running anyways, so again I'm not sure I see your point.

    Had he attempted to remove Hope earlier, they might still have Hope and possibly even the island since there's no reason for Cap to invade if Hope's not there. Considering Scott abandoned Utopia and even some of the students there, even he clearly doesn't feel it HAD to be defended.

    I'll ask again... how was Scotts way better?
    I don't know how to put it any simpler. If Utopia falls, they're doomed. So, he decided to try and defend it, instead of giving up.

  6. #726
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    That's another thing, she was going to shut down all the Avengers, she could have at that moment but she didn't until Hope was safe and I guess maybe she didn't want to be the one to start shit given her colourful background.
    Emma frankly didn't even necessarily know for sure if Hope didn't want to go along with Steve. She was the one that flat out pointed out to Scott that it was her call.

    Part of the problem is I think Scott actions even blindsided his own team a bit.

  7. #727
    Choke LeonardEugenius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    No, Cap didn't. It was a pretty short conversation, given how quickly Scott opened fire. That's the problem. If Steve knew he had maybe 90 seconds to explain his stance before Cyclops open fired on him, maybe he might have come up with a better sales pitch (assuming he'd even bother talking to Scott).

    Again, that's what turning it into a flat out brawl does... it basically removes trust and any other potential option from the table. Maybe had Scott simply tried talking more a better understanding could have been achieved. But now we'll never know.
    There was no trust to begin with in this situation. Cyclops just finished saving Captain America's life, and Cap doesn't have the decency to give him the benefit of the doubt. If Steve was willing to bring a whole army because he thought the situation would turn volatile, then he knew the conversation wasn't going to go his way. Going into the talk with that mindset, he should've laid out all the cards. He didn't. Instead he made demands and refused to leave. Both Cyclops and Cap take an L that round.

  8. #728
    Senior Member Lascoden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    How would I prefer Scott handled it? Again, by having Pixie or whatever teleport Hope away, then talking to Steve.

    I'm not saying Scott should necessarily hand her over to Steve gift wrapped with a bow, but there is some middle ground between that and flat out shooting at Steve that could have been attempted first.

    Again, violence shouldn't have been a last resort, not plan A. You can always fall back on that if other options fail. But the minute you decide to turn it into a fight other options basically get wiped off the table.
    Pixie teleports Hope away. Now, Hope's alone, separated from any support, friend, family. It would be better to keep her with the rest of the X-Men, where it is safest.

  9. #729
    Elder Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lascoden View Post
    Pixie teleports Hope away. Now, Hope's alone, separated from any support, friend, family. It would be better to keep her with the rest of the X-Men, where it is safest.
    I don't think Pixie would have been able to port away with Strange monitoring the situation there. She'd have been traced by him.

  10. #730
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lascoden View Post
    I don't know how to put it any simpler. If Utopia falls, they're doomed. So, he decided to try and defend it, instead of giving up.
    You're missing the point though.

    Had Scott simply removed Hope, Utopia might not have falled. If Hope had left, Steve might not have bothered invading at all and Utopia might still be standing.

    You want things simple, let's make it simple. Scott started a fight then ran, abandoning Utopia and even some of it's students.

    The fact that people are trying to use this logic as a defense for Scotts actions when it frankly led to that very result is something I find strange.

  11. #731
    Senior Member Lascoden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    I don't think Pixie would have been able to port away with Strange monitoring the situation there. She'd have been traced by him.
    There's that too. The Avengers would know where she went, and have the head start.

  12. #732
    Viva la Cyclops Red Lotus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    They ended up running anyways, so again I'm not sure I see your point.

    Had he attempted to remove Hope earlier, they might still have Hope and possibly even the island since there's no reason for Cap to invade if Hope's not there. Considering Scott abandoned Utopia and even some of the students there, even he clearly doesn't feel it HAD to be defended.

    I'll ask again... how was Scotts way better?

    Is there any way Scott could have removed Hope without fighting? I dont see how. Cap had Strange waiting to stop them from teleporting out. Even if he wanted to run they would have to fight to either buy time or just fight to make a run for it. Cap wasn't just going to let them leave with her.
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  13. #733
    Senior Member Lascoden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    You're missing the point though.

    Had Scott simply removed Hope, Utopia might not have falled. If Hope had left, Steve might not have bothered invading at all and Utopia might still be standing.

    You want things simple, let's make it simple. Scott started a fight then ran, abandoning Utopia and even some of it's students.

    The fact that people are trying to use this logic as a defense for Scotts actions when it frankly led to that very result is something I find strange.
    If he removed Hope and stayed in Utopia, he'd be letting he hanging her out to dry.

  14. #734
    Elder Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lascoden View Post
    There's that too. The Avengers would know where she went, and have the head start.
    That was kind of the point I think. The Avengers were just lucky that the only teleporters on the island at the time were magical in nature.

    Had Vanisher, Ariel, Lila Cheney, Blink or even Amelia Vought been present. It would have been completely different.

  15. #735
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lascoden View Post
    Pixie teleports Hope away. Now, Hope's alone, separated from any support, friend, family. It would be better to keep her with the rest of the X-Men, where it is safest.
    If her rest of the X-Men are in the middle of a fight with the Avengers, then I'm not exactly why she's safer there. Wolverine did manage to get to Hope. He obviously didn't kill her, but the Avengers did get through the X-Men's defenses.

    Again, if you look at the score card all they really did was lose Hope AND the whole island. So how is that better? I keep going back to that question, because ultimately the end result more than anything else tells the tale here.

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