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  1. #616
    Senior Member Lascoden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infiltr8r0618 View Post
    Thanks. What comic and issue is it in, I knew but forgot WatX, right? I'm admittedly an Avengers fans, I used to be heavy into X-men but then got off of them when my favorite X-man(Cyclops, ironically enough) absorbed Apocalypse or whatever the hell it was. With Cable and the Twelve(?)
    The latest X-Men Legacy, 266. Legacy is probably the weakest of the X-Titles, imho. Odd, considering it's written by the guy who does the, once again my opinion, strongest of the Avengers titles.

  2. #617
    On your left. tg1982's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lascoden View Post
    The latest X-Men Legacy, 266. Legacy is probably the weakest of the X-Titles, imho. Odd, considering it's written by the guy who does the, once again my opinion, strongest of the Avengers titles.
    Thanks again.

  3. #618
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregyo View Post
    Amen. In his book he recently beat Count Nefaria, who is right up there with Thor's level of power. I'll grant that Frenzy shouldn't have gone out there, but she was there to make sure the Avengers didn't come any closer to the school. If Moon Knight had done what Falcon had done, none of this would have started.
    *spit take*

    Moon Knight beat Count Nefaria? Now, that's jobbing on a galactic scale.

    It does mean that he should have planted that Frenzy clown pretty handily, though.

  4. #619
    jealous of me sweetdumbass's Avatar
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    Anybody in their right mind would have been put off the X-Men after reading the Twelve.
    But how disagreeing with the guy who wants to take your granddaughter by force makes one a fascist, I'll never understand
    Last edited by sweetdumbass; 05-13-2012 at 06:46 AM.

  5. #620
    Elder Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    You can't really spin the invasion. Emma read Steve's mind. He was not leaving without Hope. Why didn't he invade immediately? That's pretty obvious, he didn't think he could successfully do it. Which is why he tried to bullly the X-Men into handing her over first. Strange was gone, if Magik wanted to she could have dumped their asses in Limbo, they were mostly street levelers anyway. They'd have been stuck.

  6. #621

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    It's sad. It really is.

    I have a lot of comics. Like a lot a lot. I can count the issues of Avengers core book I own on one hand...my X-men collection takes up several hundred issues. If that is expanded to the core X-family books it accounts for a solid quarter of my collection.

    Hopefully that dissuades anyone from attacking me as an Avengers fan...

    That all said, this is exactly why I stopped reading X-men. They've become insane and their entire purpose is twisted. Cyclops (one of my, historically, favorite characters) acted completely ridiculously by attacking Captain America (EDIT: in the interest of full disclosure, I also think Captain America acted ridiculously by sucker-punching Wolverine and throwing him out a plane...and Cap is also one of my fav characters). What's more, I'm pretty sure over the years the X-boards have gone totally insane...its a breeding ground for crazy.

    Here lets follow some of the logic on this board used by people attacking the Avengers (note I say "attacking the Avengers" nor "supporting the X-men"...yes they are not the same thing)...

    Exhibit 1. "Cyclops knows more about the Phoenix force than Captain America"

    Exhibit 2. "Cyclops didn't even know the Phoenix was on its way until Captain America showed up"

    These are arguments put forth by the SAME PEOPLE. The first one is to support the idea that Cyclops DEFINITELY has a better plan (the plan we will refer to as "wishful thinking") than Captain America...and the second one is to support the idea that Cyclops shouldn't have the onus on him to meet the Phoenix head-on or otherwise do something with Hope (other than, y'know, whale on her apparently). So lets get this straight...Cyclops DEFINITELY knows more about the Phoenix than Cap...but is totally unaware of what it is doing (killing billions. Oops!) at the moment. Both these things are, apparently true...and there is no disconnect in those two things at all in the minds of Avengers-attackers. Um...okay. That's sane and reasonable.

    1. Captain America was wrong for invading a sovereign nation (no it isn't) to take someone into custody.

    2. Cyclops is in the right for invading a sovereign nation to take someone into custody.

    Again BOTH these things are being said by Avengers-attackers. Cap has legal authority in Utopia...it's in America. Also Hope is a natural born American citizen. And a minor. However, he is apparently wrong-bad for doing that. Cyclops tried to take Scarlet Witch with no legal authority what-so-ever...but this is A-okay and super awesome.

    1. Moon Knight is wrong for attacking Frenzy first. This automatically makes him bad even if he was openly provoked.

    2. Cyclops is right for attacking Captain America first. This automatically makes him right even though he wasn't openly provoked.

    ...okay.

    1. Captain America is a fascist evil skrullzinel for trying to take a child into protective custody to attempt to protect the 7 billion people on earth. This makes the Avengers evil supervillains that want to wipe out mutants even though they've always tried to support the X-men and tried to get Scarlet Witch to get them back.

    2. When Emma becomes super powerful with the Phoenix (assuming everyone is still alive) she should wipe out the Avengers and the X-men should make sure everyone knows they are powerful and in charge so no one will ever question them. Once that happens, they can make the world into a full Utopia according to what they think it should be like. This makes the X-men super-awesome superheroes and not basically supervillains at all. By the way, we don't know what superheroes do at all and Magneto is totally a good guy! Yay!

    So yeah I might have embellished that last one a bit towards the end but still...remember, we are crucifying the Avengers for trying to protect people but the X-men should take over the world and enforce their will.

    Oh and one final time...the X-men have MAGNETO on their team. He is evil. He will always be evil. He is going to do evil things in the future. The X-men accept him wholeheartedly and he is in a position of authority on Utopia...this automatically undermines all their decision making. They're idiots if they believe Magneto won't be evil soon...and its that sort of decision making in X-men leadership that has totally turned me off to them. It started with Xavier's evil (which was ludicrous and stupid...) and now its spread to Scott. It makes me a sad panda.

  7. #622
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    You can't really spin the invasion. Emma read Steve's mind. He was not leaving without Hope. Why didn't he invade immediately? That's pretty obvious, he didn't think he could successfully do it. Which is why he tried to bullly the X-Men into handing her over first. Strange was gone, if Magik wanted to she could have dumped their asses in Limbo, they were mostly street levelers anyway. They'd have been stuck.
    I think it's pretty obvious Steve believed he could invade sucessfully because he essentially did just that. After Scott attacked Steve, they invaded, Steve's side got past Scott's defenses, and Scotts side essentially retreated.

    As far as Emma reading Steve's mind... she can read that he wants Hope. But it's not possible for her to know for a fact that he couldn't change his mind or agree to some sort of compromise. Again, Steve and Scott never even got to the point where they really said what they had planned. So and Emma for that matter can't know for sure that if one heard what the other was actually doing, they might not be able to find some sort of middle ground.

    And it's also possible had Scott simply teleported Hope away the second Steve even set foot on Utopia, a fight and invasion might have been avoided altogether.

    There are ways Scott could have handled that situation differently aside from simply flat out shooting at Steve 2 minutes into the conversation which MIGHT have been able to avoid a flat out conflict. Not saying any of those other options were guranteed to suceed... but they were worth trying before simply starting a fight which the X-Men flat out didn't win in the end.

  8. #623
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    Great post.....I agree totally.

    Quote Originally Posted by YagamiFire View Post
    It's sad. It really is.

    I have a lot of comics. Like a lot a lot. I can count the issues of Avengers core book I own on one hand...my X-men collection takes up several hundred issues. If that is expanded to the core X-family books it accounts for a solid quarter of my collection.

    Hopefully that dissuades anyone from attacking me as an Avengers fan...

    That all said, this is exactly why I stopped reading X-men. They've become insane and their entire purpose is twisted. Cyclops (one of my, historically, favorite characters) acted completely ridiculously by attacking Captain America (EDIT: in the interest of full disclosure, I also think Captain America acted ridiculously by sucker-punching Wolverine and throwing him out a plane...and Cap is also one of my fav characters). What's more, I'm pretty sure over the years the X-boards have gone totally insane...its a breeding ground for crazy.

    Here lets follow some of the logic on this board used by people attacking the Avengers (note I say "attacking the Avengers" nor "supporting the X-men"...yes they are not the same thing)...

    Exhibit 1. "Cyclops knows more about the Phoenix force than Captain America"

    Exhibit 2. "Cyclops didn't even know the Phoenix was on its way until Captain America showed up"

    These are arguments put forth by the SAME PEOPLE. The first one is to support the idea that Cyclops DEFINITELY has a better plan (the plan we will refer to as "wishful thinking") than Captain America...and the second one is to support the idea that Cyclops shouldn't have the onus on him to meet the Phoenix head-on or otherwise do something with Hope (other than, y'know, whale on her apparently). So lets get this straight...Cyclops DEFINITELY knows more about the Phoenix than Cap...but is totally unaware of what it is doing (killing billions. Oops!) at the moment. Both these things are, apparently true...and there is no disconnect in those two things at all in the minds of Avengers-attackers. Um...okay. That's sane and reasonable.

    1. Captain America was wrong for invading a sovereign nation (no it isn't) to take someone into custody.

    2. Cyclops is in the right for invading a sovereign nation to take someone into custody.

    Again BOTH these things are being said by Avengers-attackers. Cap has legal authority in Utopia...it's in America. Also Hope is a natural born American citizen. And a minor. However, he is apparently wrong-bad for doing that. Cyclops tried to take Scarlet Witch with no legal authority what-so-ever...but this is A-okay and super awesome.

    1. Moon Knight is wrong for attacking Frenzy first. This automatically makes him bad even if he was openly provoked.

    2. Cyclops is right for attacking Captain America first. This automatically makes him right even though he wasn't openly provoked.

    ...okay.

    1. Captain America is a fascist evil skrullzinel for trying to take a child into protective custody to attempt to protect the 7 billion people on earth. This makes the Avengers evil supervillains that want to wipe out mutants even though they've always tried to support the X-men and tried to get Scarlet Witch to get them back.

    2. When Emma becomes super powerful with the Phoenix (assuming everyone is still alive) she should wipe out the Avengers and the X-men should make sure everyone knows they are powerful and in charge so no one will ever question them. Once that happens, they can make the world into a full Utopia according to what they think it should be like. This makes the X-men super-awesome superheroes and not basically supervillains at all. By the way, we don't know what superheroes do at all and Magneto is totally a good guy! Yay!

    So yeah I might have embellished that last one a bit towards the end but still...remember, we are crucifying the Avengers for trying to protect people but the X-men should take over the world and enforce their will.

    Oh and one final time...the X-men have MAGNETO on their team. He is evil. He will always be evil. He is going to do evil things in the future. The X-men accept him wholeheartedly and he is in a position of authority on Utopia...this automatically undermines all their decision making. They're idiots if they believe Magneto won't be evil soon...and its that sort of decision making in X-men leadership that has totally turned me off to them. It started with Xavier's evil (which was ludicrous and stupid...) and now its spread to Scott. It makes me a sad panda.

  9. #624
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaric Rivad View Post
    *spit take*

    Moon Knight beat Count Nefaria? Now, that's jobbing on a galactic scale.

    It does mean that he should have planted that Frenzy clown pretty handily, though.
    Not to let the facts get int he way of a good story, but Moon Knight had more than a little help there when Nefaria was beaten in the end.

  10. #625
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chariset View Post
    Do you think the fights in #4 (which leads up to what looks like a complete mutant triumph in #5) will settle anything? As in, will some Avengers/X-Men be killed, captured, or otherwise taken out of action in the next issue? Or will things more or less end in a stalemate until the Phoenix arrives to possess Emma or whoever in #5?
    If this is a 12 issue thing, I can't imagine too much will be settled in issue 4. Though Issue 5 seems to be a game changer.

  11. #626
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    ROTFLMAO, to have an Avengers fan criticize that after vOMIT, Three Avengers are currently mind-controlling the world on a ongoing basis.
    She mind wiped him so they did not have to kill him
    And again, the real issue is why it's done.

    I personally don't believe Emma mind wiping or killing someone just to cover up her behind is really a justifiable reason to do what she did. If you disagree and find her actions acceptable or justifiable we can agree to disagree.

  12. #627
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    This is why I stay as far away from the X-board as humanly possible and
    why I need to wash my hands of the enormous negativity.


    Quote Originally Posted by YagamiFire View Post
    It's sad. It really is.

    I have a lot of comics. Like a lot a lot. I can count the issues of Avengers core book I own on one hand...my X-men collection takes up several hundred issues. If that is expanded to the core X-family books it accounts for a solid quarter of my collection.

    Hopefully that dissuades anyone from attacking me as an Avengers fan...

    That all said, this is exactly why I stopped reading X-men. They've become insane and their entire purpose is twisted. Cyclops (one of my, historically, favorite characters) acted completely ridiculously by attacking Captain America (EDIT: in the interest of full disclosure, I also think Captain America acted ridiculously by sucker-punching Wolverine and throwing him out a plane...and Cap is also one of my fav characters). What's more, I'm pretty sure over the years the X-boards have gone totally insane...its a breeding ground for crazy.

    Here lets follow some of the logic on this board used by people attacking the Avengers (note I say "attacking the Avengers" nor "supporting the X-men"...yes they are not the same thing)...

    Exhibit 1. "Cyclops knows more about the Phoenix force than Captain America"

    Exhibit 2. "Cyclops didn't even know the Phoenix was on its way until Captain America showed up"

    These are arguments put forth by the SAME PEOPLE. The first one is to support the idea that Cyclops DEFINITELY has a better plan (the plan we will refer to as "wishful thinking") than Captain America...and the second one is to support the idea that Cyclops shouldn't have the onus on him to meet the Phoenix head-on or otherwise do something with Hope (other than, y'know, whale on her apparently). So lets get this straight...Cyclops DEFINITELY knows more about the Phoenix than Cap...but is totally unaware of what it is doing (killing billions. Oops!) at the moment. Both these things are, apparently true...and there is no disconnect in those two things at all in the minds of Avengers-attackers. Um...okay. That's sane and reasonable.

    1. Captain America was wrong for invading a sovereign nation (no it isn't) to take someone into custody.

    2. Cyclops is in the right for invading a sovereign nation to take someone into custody.

    Again BOTH these things are being said by Avengers-attackers. Cap has legal authority in Utopia...it's in America. Also Hope is a natural born American citizen. And a minor. However, he is apparently wrong-bad for doing that. Cyclops tried to take Scarlet Witch with no legal authority what-so-ever...but this is A-okay and super awesome.

    1. Moon Knight is wrong for attacking Frenzy first. This automatically makes him bad even if he was openly provoked.

    2. Cyclops is right for attacking Captain America first. This automatically makes him right even though he wasn't openly provoked.

    ...okay.

    1. Captain America is a fascist evil skrullzinel for trying to take a child into protective custody to attempt to protect the 7 billion people on earth. This makes the Avengers evil supervillains that want to wipe out mutants even though they've always tried to support the X-men and tried to get Scarlet Witch to get them back.

    2. When Emma becomes super powerful with the Phoenix (assuming everyone is still alive) she should wipe out the Avengers and the X-men should make sure everyone knows they are powerful and in charge so no one will ever question them. Once that happens, they can make the world into a full Utopia according to what they think it should be like. This makes the X-men super-awesome superheroes and not basically supervillains at all. By the way, we don't know what superheroes do at all and Magneto is totally a good guy! Yay!

    So yeah I might have embellished that last one a bit towards the end but still...remember, we are crucifying the Avengers for trying to protect people but the X-men should take over the world and enforce their will.

    Oh and one final time...the X-men have MAGNETO on their team. He is evil. He will always be evil. He is going to do evil things in the future. The X-men accept him wholeheartedly and he is in a position of authority on Utopia...this automatically undermines all their decision making. They're idiots if they believe Magneto won't be evil soon...and its that sort of decision making in X-men leadership that has totally turned me off to them. It started with Xavier's evil (which was ludicrous and stupid...) and now its spread to Scott. It makes me a sad panda.

  13. #628
    jealous of me sweetdumbass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YagamiFire View Post
    *lot of text*
    Captain America doesn't have a plan. That's what discredits him. Wolverine's plan is terrible too, because stabbing hosts was never efficient. Cyclops plan might seem like it's not much, but it's the only one with slight chances to work. Actually, if you read New Avengers, you should know that Cyclops preparing Hope is exactly what's been done with previous Phoenix host Fongji, and albeit we don't know how that story ends, it doesn't look like the Earth was destroyed or we would know. And it was written by Brian Avengers Bendis.

  14. #629
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetdumbass View Post
    Captain America doesn't have a plan. That's what discredits him. Wolverine's plan is terrible too, because stabbing hosts was never efficient. Cyclops plan might seem like it's not much, but it's the only one with slight chances to work. Actually, if you read New Avengers, you should know that Cyclops preparing Hope is exactly what's been done with previous Phoenix host Fongji, and albeit we don't know how that story ends, it doesn't look like the Earth was destroyed or we would know. And it was written by Brian Avengers Bendis.
    I think Cyclops basically admitted that he's making it up as he goes along.

  15. #630
    Veteran Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YagamiFire View Post
    It's sad. It really is.

    I have a lot of comics. Like a lot a lot. I can count the issues of Avengers core book I own on one hand...my X-men collection takes up several hundred issues. If that is expanded to the core X-family books it accounts for a solid quarter of my collection.

    Hopefully that dissuades anyone from attacking me as an Avengers fan...

    That all said, this is exactly why I stopped reading X-men. They've become insane and their entire purpose is twisted. Cyclops (one of my, historically, favorite characters) acted completely ridiculously by attacking Captain America (EDIT: in the interest of full disclosure, I also think Captain America acted ridiculously by sucker-punching Wolverine and throwing him out a plane...and Cap is also one of my fav characters). What's more, I'm pretty sure over the years the X-boards have gone totally insane...its a breeding ground for crazy.

    Here lets follow some of the logic on this board used by people attacking the Avengers (note I say "attacking the Avengers" nor "supporting the X-men"...yes they are not the same thing)...

    Exhibit 1. "Cyclops knows more about the Phoenix force than Captain America"

    Exhibit 2. "Cyclops didn't even know the Phoenix was on its way until Captain America showed up"

    These are arguments put forth by the SAME PEOPLE. The first one is to support the idea that Cyclops DEFINITELY has a better plan (the plan we will refer to as "wishful thinking") than Captain America...and the second one is to support the idea that Cyclops shouldn't have the onus on him to meet the Phoenix head-on or otherwise do something with Hope (other than, y'know, whale on her apparently). So lets get this straight...Cyclops DEFINITELY knows more about the Phoenix than Cap...but is totally unaware of what it is doing (killing billions. Oops!) at the moment. Both these things are, apparently true...and there is no disconnect in those two things at all in the minds of Avengers-attackers. Um...okay. That's sane and reasonable.

    1. Captain America was wrong for invading a sovereign nation (no it isn't) to take someone into custody.

    2. Cyclops is in the right for invading a sovereign nation to take someone into custody.

    Again BOTH these things are being said by Avengers-attackers. Cap has legal authority in Utopia...it's in America. Also Hope is a natural born American citizen. And a minor. However, he is apparently wrong-bad for doing that. Cyclops tried to take Scarlet Witch with no legal authority what-so-ever...but this is A-okay and super awesome.

    1. Moon Knight is wrong for attacking Frenzy first. This automatically makes him bad even if he was openly provoked.

    2. Cyclops is right for attacking Captain America first. This automatically makes him right even though he wasn't openly provoked.

    ...okay.

    1. Captain America is a fascist evil skrullzinel for trying to take a child into protective custody to attempt to protect the 7 billion people on earth. This makes the Avengers evil supervillains that want to wipe out mutants even though they've always tried to support the X-men and tried to get Scarlet Witch to get them back.

    2. When Emma becomes super powerful with the Phoenix (assuming everyone is still alive) she should wipe out the Avengers and the X-men should make sure everyone knows they are powerful and in charge so no one will ever question them. Once that happens, they can make the world into a full Utopia according to what they think it should be like. This makes the X-men super-awesome superheroes and not basically supervillains at all. By the way, we don't know what superheroes do at all and Magneto is totally a good guy! Yay!

    So yeah I might have embellished that last one a bit towards the end but still...remember, we are crucifying the Avengers for trying to protect people but the X-men should take over the world and enforce their will.

    Oh and one final time...the X-men have MAGNETO on their team. He is evil. He will always be evil. He is going to do evil things in the future. The X-men accept him wholeheartedly and he is in a position of authority on Utopia...this automatically undermines all their decision making. They're idiots if they believe Magneto won't be evil soon...and its that sort of decision making in X-men leadership that has totally turned me off to them. It started with Xavier's evil (which was ludicrous and stupid...) and now its spread to Scott. It makes me a sad panda.


    Don't worry. You are not alone. Though more of an Avengers fan that an X-Men one (though I still like them a lot), I frequently feel dumbfounded at the lengths that both sides of fandom go to justify the crap that we are being given with this tottaly staged, unnecessary and forced "conflict". Great characters, voices of reason, have been turned into idiots for this to work, and people are eating it up, and worst, actively defending each side's douchbagery. Nothing against a good and pointles throw down (it's the stuff comics are made off, after all), but this has reached new hights of idiocy. As you said. It sad.

    Peace

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