X-Men Legacy #266 (SAM, IT'S OK): Review and Spoilers.

[remydat]

Have you mixed up seeking redemption with trying to quit drinking? Besides, I doubt she even thinks of it as seeking redemption. She has no use for messiahs. She is simply trying to make a better life for herself. This will lead to redemption, eventually, if she continues with it, along with the remorse you seek.
I'm suggesting that she is on the road to redemption not so much because she has said "I'm on the road to redemption", but, well, because that is the style of story that seems to being told. An old trope, and quite frankly she hasn't reached the point where she feels remorse yet, because that takes time. Remorse isn't that start, not really. It's the hard bit. Getting to the point where you realize what you have done is wrong, that is the start of the road.

No, both require an admission. Quiting drinking requires an admission you have a problem. The definition of redemption is seeking atonement for one's guilt. If you have no guilt then you cannot be on a road to redemption. Frenzy simply expressed a desire to be seen as a hero as she was in AoX. That is not seeking redemption. That is seeking the status and feeling of self-worth that comes with being recognized as a hero. Now again, maybe at some point it will be revealed that Frenzy does feel guilt and remorse but until it is revealed she does it is simply by definition not redemption.

[Moonshine]

Besides, I doubt she even thinks of it as seeking redemption. She has no use for messiahs. She is simply trying to make a better life for herself. This will lead to redemption, eventually, if she continues with it, along with the remorse you seek.

Why will it necessarily lead to that? Just because she is being selfish wanting to be a hero by default does not mean she eventually has to decide or learn remorse. Everyone who does "good" things for personal reasons does not always learn something from it. Actually I'm perfectly fine with her playing hero for completely selfish and non redemptive reasons and staying that way as long as we don't get some BS from the other characters acting like she's "reformed". Its the way I see Magneto right now and it works a heck of a lot better to me than trying to buy he's suddenly not the self-absorbed arrogant jerk he's always been. Not everyone changes to be good because they just happen to be in a heroic role because of circumstance.

If that was the case, a person deciding to be a fireman because he likes action and fire and would still kill someone in a instant if he wanted to would "naturally" change into a redemptive nice person just because they became a fireman and that is just not true.

I agree with Remydat and others, their is nothing redemptive or admirable about Frenzy just because she's now an X-Man and Scott's mutants will take whatever they can. Why does she have to be that? She's more interesting and a completely loose cannon as she is and that makes her a great story character for others to interact with even if I think in real life she should be rotting in a jail cell.

Now again, maybe at some point it will be revealed that Frenzy does feel guilt and remorse but until it is revealed she does it is simply by definition not redemption.

Even if she admits guilt, it does not necessarily mean she wants to redeem herself. She can feel guilt for all sorts of reasons and many of them may have nothing to do with doing something to remove that guilt. She still hates humans so I would doubt any guilt she might feel is because of hurt she caused others.

[mikekerrIII]

The Avengers already knew members of the JGS had joined Cyke. Again, it would be pretty fucking stupid for them not to monitor the school. If two suicide bombers (lets call them Bobby and Rachel) were linked to a mosque then I can guarantee you the US government would monitor that mosque. That by and large was the reason for passing the Patriot Act. And they have not detained an entire school campus. They came to a mutual agreement with Kitty that Moon Knight broke because he is a moron. Until someone tries to leave the campus and the Avengers actually try to detain them, all we have from them is tough talk.

they stated they were there to prevent them from leaving< that is the definition of detaining someone, How were they going to prevent them from joining Cyke if they were not detaing anyone? You can't fo that by watching only by stopping people from leaving

As for Utopia, it would only be a violation if the US government did not approve of it. Otherwise, the US government invades sovereign nations all the time when they perceive a threat. That was the reason for them going into Iraq. Just recently, the US has been sending forces into Pakistan without that government's permission in search of Bin Laden. The fact is once the US Government has deemed someone a national security threat, all their presumed civil rights go out the window. There were a bunch of people in Guantanamo Bay who were held without being charged and without access to an attorney for months/years on the basis they were a threat to national security.

Bullshit, all right's don't go out the window, even if some scum thinks they do

So you can object to what they are doing on moral grounds certainly as I find it stupid and utterly objectionable but it is not outside the realm of the law if their actions have been sanctioned by the US Government.

the US Government sanctioning an act does not stop the act from being a crime

I thought the first step is admitting you have a problem? Normally people express the remorse first and then that is the impetus to seek redemption. No one is looking for a Damscus style conversion but why would I think Frenzy is on the road to redemption when there is no evidence she feels sorry for anything she did? This is like saying a guy is on the road to being sober when he never actually admitted to having a drinking problem. Sure it is possible but its unlikely anyone would believe him until he actually takes that first step.

She has admitted she was wrong, she was a follower who didn't use hewer own judgement. She say's she has stopped following messiah's and doing that was her problem in the first place.

[Chase_Stein]

Wow, Gage redeemed himself with this issue. Rogue finally abandoning her diplomatic Mary Sue characterization for no holds barred Shulking up. Frenzy finally living up to her wild card potential. This is what I expected when they announced this creative team and roster.

I think what's keeping Rogue from being a great character is that she's constantly held back by her demons. She using her demons, the students, and her relationships as a crutch to become a better person, but much to everyone's chagrin she has become more and more reticent with her role as a leader. With this issue she dealt with them, finally! No longer caring and finally letting go! Ah'm so proud,

Gambit acting as Rogue's conscience is still horrible. A minor quibble considering the strengths of this issue.

9/10.

[Chase_Stein]

LOL Hi-Fi pretty much said the same thing about Rogue! Great Review!

[Chase_Stein]

FTH NO! X-Treme Rogue > *


She was so good then, even Gambit/Rogue worked (for the only time ever).

CC understood their dynamic. Gambit as a carefree thief who cares for and trolls Rogue, and Rogue as a passionate and wild woman who hate-loves Gambit. I love their rom-com relationship. CC never sentimentalized it, and instead he kept it fun while developing them as characters.

AOX Gambit and Rogue were sweet though. I love the mutual respect they had for each other, and they still had that unexplored/ untapped sexual tension going on. :3

[remydat]

Even if she admits guilt, it does not necessarily mean she wants to redeem herself. She can feel guilt for all sorts of reasons and many of them may have nothing to do with doing something to remove that guilt. She still hates humans so I would doubt any guilt she might feel is because of hurt she caused others.

Well of course. As I said, Redemption requires seeking atonement for guilt so by definition it requires both guilt/remorse and the desire to atone for that guilt/remorse.

[remydat]

they stated they were there to prevent them from leaving< that is the definition of detaining someone, How were they going to prevent them from joining Cyke if they were not detaing anyone? You can't fo that by watching only by stopping people from leaving.

If I tell you don't leave and you don't, I have not detained you. You simply choose to follow my instructions. If I tell you don't leave and you refuse and I do something to prevent you then that is detaining someone. The Avengers made no threat of violenece or anything against the X-men. They simply said they were there to prevent them from joining Cyke and the X-men decided to comply and did so by asking the Avengers to keep their distance at which point the Avengers complied until Moon Knight decided to be an idiot.

Bullshit, all right's don't go out the window, even if some scum thinks they do.

They do if the US Governments says you are a terrorist or a threat to humanity. Again, clearly you have not been paying attention to the war on terror.

the US Government sanctioning an act does not stop the act from being a crime.

The US Government decides the laws of the land. The US Government has decided that if someone is a terrorist or a threat to national security that certain rights afforded to other citizens are no longer applicable. Further if Utopia is a Sovereign nation then an attack on it could be considered an act of war and anyone assisting Utopia would be an enemy combatant. Further any U.S. citizen assisting Utopia would be guilty of treason. Those captured are effectively Prisoners of War and are not subject to the rights afforded US Citizens although they have other rights under the Geneva connection. Terrorists don't even get those rights since Bush II. Again, this is assuming the Avengers actions were sanctioned by the U.S. government but you are confusing the rights afforded to normal U.S. Citizens to the rights afforded those to be threats to national security and enemies of the State.

She has admitted she was wrong, she was a follower who didn't use hewer own judgement. She say's she has stopped following messiah's and doing that was her problem in the first place.

When did she admit she was wrong? She simply acknowledged that the methods ie cold bolded murder may not have been wise not that her goals or hatred of humans was wrong. If I simply decide that murdering people in cold bold is not an effective means of achieving my goals, I am not expressing guilt or remorse. I am simply coming to the logical conclusion that it did not help me achieve my objective.

And I am pretty sure the Nazis who gassed countless Jews used the same I was just following orders bullshit and it was bullshit then as it is now. She said following messiahs is what got HER INTO PROBLEMS. It would be like me saying, I was foolish to listen to Hitler because look how it turned out for me. Any sensible person would be taken aback that I seem more concerned about how it turned out for ME without a mention of how it turned out for those Jews I killed in cold blood. Again, it is a selfish and self-centered statement that proves nothing regarding my feeling guilty or wanting redemption. It is the equivalent of feeling sorry not because you committed a crime but because you got caught.

Now again, perhaps when Gage focuses on Frenzy we will get more backstory and a better idea of how she feels but please, nothing anyone has written about her thus far is indicative of someone seeking redemption.

[remydat]

Wow, Gage redeemed himself with this issue. Rogue finally abandoning her diplomatic Mary Sue characterization for no holds barred Shulking up. Frenzy finally living up to her wild card potential. This is what I expected when they announced this creative team and roster.

I think what's keeping Rogue from being a great character is that she's constantly held back by her demons. She using her demons, the students, and her relationships as a crutch to become a better person, but much to everyone's chagrin she has become more and more reticent with her role as a leader. With this issue she dealt with them, finally! No longer caring and finally letting go! Ah'm so proud,

Gambit acting as Rogue's conscience is still horrible. A minor quibble considering the strengths of this issue.

9/10.

It was always weird that Rogue who was so implusive and at times reckless back when she had no control of her powers would suddenly become so pensive and indecisive once she gained control. You would think gaining control would result in her being even more confident in herself leading to being even more implusive. That was part of what made her appealing. She was a leader unlike Cyke, Storm, Wolvy or whoever else in that her implusiveness could be just what the X-men needed at that particular time or it could be a fucking disaster.

And Gambit was hardly acting like her conscience. He simply told her stop being so wishy washy and man up. Frankly it is the same thing he told her regarding their relationship after years of her stringing him along. The message was the same but the context was different. Frankly it is something that should have been said a long time ago instead of him being a bitch all the time around her. Who better to tell Rogue to act like Rogue than the man who has been her lover and teamate for years. Really what Gambit should have said was "Bitch I don't even know who you are anymore!"

[Chase_Stein]

It was always weird that Rogue who was so implusive and at times reckless back when she had no control of her powers would suddenly become so pensive and indecisive once she gained control. You would think gaining control would result in her being even more confident in herself leading to being even more implusive. That was part of what made her appealing. She was a leader unlike Cyke, Storm, Wolvy or whoever else in that her implusiveness could be just what the X-men needed at that particular time or it could be a fucking disaster.

Exactly. That's why I never truly warmed up to Carey's run towards the end. There are just so many doubts and questions for Rogue when it should have been the other way around. It was nice that she finally gets to choose her man, but everything was so internalized through dialogue. She was more of in control of her body, but since that conflict was "gone," her problems became more emotional, which in the end became more of a burden for the character. It's almost like she's afraid to lose control again, and I think that's part of the reason why she chose Magneto in the end. He was the stable "in-control" man with a vision, whereas Gambit was just the unpredictable and fun fling that she once had. That's also why this issue succeeds so much. Gage finally managed to show Rogue's dilemma with her powers now that she's in control. Yes, she can defeat the Avengers, but she questions if it is for a greater cause. In the end, her impulsiveness prevailed and she's no longer held back by her own doubts. Doubts be damned! She knew that her protege, Hope, needed her!

As for Gambit in this issue, I hated that his whole role was predicated in Rogue. He was against the Avengers, and yet Rogue who was the most reluctant perhaps, acted first. Anywya, like I said, just a minor quibble.

[remydat]

As for Gambit in this issue, I hated that his whole role was predicated in Rogue. He was against the Avengers, and yet Rogue who was the most reluctant perhaps, acted first. Anywya, like I said, just a minor quibble.

Well yes, I don't think anyone really likes that his only purpose in the book is to be there for Rogue but this was a vast improvement over his usually only being their to cry when Rogue gets hurt or hug her when she is in danger. At least this time, he actually had a useful role despite it being all about Rogue still.

[Sylarmax]

My god this so good.

Romy great.

Frenzy was great.

Participation of teachers, excellent

Rogue kicking ass avengers, it was great.

Flshbacks to Rogue defeating the Avengers most powerful ( Thor and Ms Marvel ), and the Cap America, great shows, she is really an omega level mutant, really.

Gambit was fine, now expect to kick ass to Moon knight.

Rogue is a great leader, but leader does not have to be boring, so Gage shows, can remain Rogue, and leader at a time, and this issue shows.

Rogue awakening of brainwashing, next step to realize that what happened with Magneto was not for his own feelings, something we know.

Issue 10/10 Bravo Gage, now I hope that ironman be humbled, and that Rogue do not lose against Carol.

[mikekerrIII]

If I tell you don't leave and you don't, I have not detained you. You simply choose to follow my instructions. If I tell you don't leave and you refuse and I do something to prevent you then that is detaining someone. The Avengers made no threat of violence or anything against the X-men. They simply said they were there to prevent them from joining Cyke and the X-men decided to comply and did so by asking the Avengers to keep their distance at which point the Avengers complied until Moon Knight decided to be an idiot.

How would the stop someone from joining the other X-men with out force, they can't make sure that nobody does without force of the implied threat of force

They do if the US Governments says you are a terrorist or a threat to humanity. Again, clearly you have not been paying attention to the war on terror.

I have been playing attention, what has happened Every time the US goverment has tried to pull that BS in the US?

The US Government decides the laws of the land. The US Government has decided that if someone is a terrorist or a threat to national security that certain rights afforded to other citizens are no longer applicable. Further if Utopia is a Sovereign nation then an attack on it could be considered an act of war and anyone assisting Utopia would be an enemy combatant. Further any U.S. citizen assisting Utopia would be guilty of treason. Those captured are effectively Prisoners of War and are not subject to the rights afforded US Citizens although they have other rights under the Geneva connection. Terrorists don't even get those rights since Bush II. Again, this is assuming the Avengers actions were sanctioned by the U.S. government but you are confusing the rights afforded to normal U.S. Citizens to the rights afforded those to be threats to national security and enemies of the State.

You are confusing the power of the US government with that of dictatorial and communist countries, In the US you can't be arrested until you commit a crime or attempt to.

And if the people held are POW's in a war, then they are allowed to kill without repercussions since killing other combatants in war is perfectly legal.

The rights of a enemy of the state ( that is not a legal term in the US) or even a suspected terrorist are exactly the same as any other citizen, unlike what some might think there is no escape clause in the Bill of Rights. You willl notice the lack of people arrests in the US that are in GITMO and the civil criminal trials for people arrested in the US.

BUSH II tried but the courts slapped him down hard with that BS.

When did she admit she was wrong? She simply acknowledged that the methods ie cold bolded murder may not have been wise not that her goals or hatred of humans was wrong. If I simply decide that murdering people in cold bold is not an effective means of achieving my goals, I am not expressing guilt or remorse. I am simply coming to the logical conclusion that it did not help me achieve my objective.

Her goals were always the protection of her people, nothing was wring with them. Her methods were the problem and she has renounced them.

[mikeb]

Issue 10/10 Bravo Gage, now I hope that ironman be humbled, and that Rogue do not lose against Carol.

As far as Rogue and Carol goes,I think it will be 15% fight (or less) and 85% (or more) mush!There will be a lot of talk about the past and flashbacks.I would like Rogue to ask Carol if she is going to break her ribs again!I also think Carol and Rogue will talk things out and Carol will reveal something to Rogue which will make Rogue feel alot better about herself.I also think Rogue is only able to access a small percentage of her power in it's now Mature Form because of her insecurity and low self esteme.Carol may be able to help Rogue reach her true potential.(This is pure speculation on my part.)

[Regino]

I haven't gotten this for a while because Weapon Omega is awful. But this issue is hilarious. Frenzy is the best. She kills it in this issue. Her pounding of Moon Knight is awesome. I don't see why AvX isn't comprised of the X-men pwning the Avengers. It would be the greatest event ever. Oh well. At least we get to see Rogue beat up both Jens and Moon Knight.