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  1. #556
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daesim View Post
    Doom eviscerating Asgardians like a Holocaust Doctor was complete monster territory. Funny how Odin hasn't nuked Latvaria yet.
    Does that even count these days. Seems like Asgard gets wiped out every year or so.

  2. #557
    No Day but Today Viteh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    There is no reason to think the PF cared what Rachel did one way or the other. It could have been for, against or indifferent. Who the hell knows. As for evolution, it neither proves or disproves the existence of a higher power. If I wanted to believe in a higher power then why wouldn't I simply believe that evolution is its mechanism for creation?

    And yes, in Endsong, the comic clearly gave an indication that Jean asserted some measure of control over it ie went against the PF intentions and ultimately become one with the PF so while I could argue that point, I won't. However, that says nothing about Rachel.
    Sorry, I think I was unclear. My point was that I could argue that evolution didn't actually happen, because there's no proof that the evidence wasn't planted by someone else. (Higher power, aliens, whatevs) There's no way that you can tell me with certainty that that's not true. So using that kind of argument, we can't be sure that evolution is real, despite the evidence and science behind it.

    Regargind Endsong, sure, that doesn't say anything about Rachel, but it does say something about the PF being controlled. Isn't that what this is all about?

  3. #558
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viteh View Post
    Sorry, I think I was unclear. My point was that I could argue that evolution didn't actually happen, because there's no proof that the evidence wasn't planted by someone else. (Higher power, aliens, whatevs) There's no way that you can tell me with certainty that that's not true. So using that kind of argument, we can't be sure that evolution is real, despite the evidence and science behind it.

    Regargind Endsong, sure, that doesn't say anything about Rachel, but it does say something about the PF being controlled. Isn't that what this is all about?
    Yes but there is a scientific basis to believe it did. The theory has been subjected to some degree of scientific rigor to determine its plausibility. There is nothing in Rachel's encounters with the PF that suggests anything about the actual PF entity's intentions.

    Endsong, I could debate in the sense that Jean ended up having to merge with PF so who is to argue the PF did not get what it wanted ultimately. I would feel stronger saying JG definitely controlled it if JG was running around earth living her life instead of being in the White Hot Room. Again, that is the issue when you are dealing with cosmic entity or something akin to God. When you think you have the upper hand, it may very well be you end up right where that cosmic entity/god wanted you all along. But again, at least with Jean I won't argue it much as the comic was much clearer about it.
    Last edited by remydat; 05-10-2012 at 03:20 PM.

  4. #559
    No Day but Today Viteh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Yes but there is a scientific basis to believe it did. The theory has been subjected to some degree of scientific rigor to determine its plausibility. There is nothing in Rachel's encounters with the PF that suggests anything about the actual PF entity's intentions.

    Endsong, I could debate in the sense that Jean ended up having to merge with PF so who is to argue the PF did not get what it wanted ultimately. I would feel stronger saying JG definitely controlled it if JG was running around earth living her life instead of being in the White Hot Room. Again, that is the issue when you are dealing with cosmic entity or something akin to God. When you think you have the upper hand, it may very well be you end up right where that cosmic entity/god wanted you all along. But again, at least with Jean I won't argue it much as the comic was much clearer about it.
    But, let's say that JG did run around earth living her life (Which is what Rachel did, but whatevs), couldn't you argue that maybe that's what the PF wanted? That it was only pretending? Basically, no matter what evidence is presented, one could always argue that you can't be sure about anything.

  5. #560
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viteh View Post
    But, let's say that JG did run around earth living her life (Which is what Rachel did, but whatevs), couldn't you argue that maybe that's what the PF wanted? That it was only pretending? Basically, no matter what evidence is presented, one could always argue that you can't be sure about anything.
    Again, there was never an indication that the PF cared what Rachel did one way or the other. Why would I conclude in that case?

    With Jean there was a clear instance of her presumably asserting her will against that of the PF which is why I said I won't argue if that is your view. Those two situations are different. In once case there is evidence that the PF wanted one thing but Jean did another, in the other situation, who the fuck knows what the PF wanted when Rachel had its power. You can't pretend those two situations are identifical just as you can't pretend believing in evolution which has science to support it is the same as believing in God which is a matter of faith.

  6. #561
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    ....the reason they don't allow southerners in the Avengers.
    Ever hear of Monica Rambeau?She's from Louisiana.

  7. #562
    No Day but Today Viteh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Again, there was never an indication that the PF cared what Rachel did one way or the other. Why would I conclude in that case?

    With Jean there was a clear instance of her presumably asserting her will against that of the PF which is why I said I won't argue if that is your view. Those two situations are different. In once case there is evidence that the PF wanted one thing but Jean did another, in the other situation, who the fuck knows what the PF wanted when Rachel had its power. You can't pretend those two situations are identifical just as you can't pretend believing in evolution which has science to support it is the same as believing in God which is a matter of faith.
    Just for the record, I never said it was the same believing in evolution as in a god, that is not the point I was trying to make.

    Yes, as far as I know, there's no indication that the PF opposed what Rachel did when she was the phoenix. But it's not like she was the host of its power, she was the host of the phoenix. There's a difference. When she had the fragment during the Vulcan arc, she only had a fraction of the power, that's different than when she was the host of the whole PF. She controlled it, because she was it.
    Also I believe Rachel lost her connection to the PF because she went to the future, not because the PF chose to leave her.

  8. #563
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeb View Post
    Ever hear of Monica Rambeau?She's from Louisiana.
    Do you read current comics? She's not an Avenger and has not been on the active roster for years. Gambit's point is valid.

  9. #564
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superbeast View Post
    Do you read current comics? She's not an Avenger and has not been on the active roster for years. Gambit's point is valid.
    What's the mantra of the Avengers...Once an Avenger,aways an Avenger.

  10. #565

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    "If you're not an Avenger yet, You will be"
    You're superior to pryde in my eyes -tlp

    Are you trying to fight me, teddy? I believe in gender equality, I will falcon punch you - Jan 'slacker' Brady

  11. #566
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viteh View Post
    But, let's say that JG did run around earth living her life (Which is what Rachel did, but whatevs), couldn't you argue that maybe that's what the PF wanted? That it was only pretending? Basically, no matter what evidence is presented, one could always argue that you can't be sure about anything.
    100% surety is not something that a rational man should expect about anything in the universe, not even sunrise tomorrow. the basic nature of the universe works against the idea since it is based on probability not certainty. Reality is no more absolutely predictable than the health of the famous Germans cat.
    Pain shared is divided, joy shared is multiplied

  12. #567
    ♥♥ dilettante ♥♥ Pixie_Solanas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeb View Post
    What's the mantra of the Avengers...Once an Avenger,aways an Avenger.
    LOL, tell that to poor, dumb Echo. They couldn't even bother answering her calls.

  13. #568
    Veteran Member Slant's Avatar
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    Ha, 40+ years and you can name ONE person, who's never there anymore. Its the same as "I have a black friend".

    I don't see Monica lining up to fight with the rest of the boys this event do I?

  14. #569
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeb View Post
    What's the mantra of the Avengers...Once an Avenger,aways an Avenger.
    Sandman says hi. Norman Osborn and the Dark Avengers send their regards also.

    She's not active roster. Doesn't count. No ID card, no government cheque, no dice.

  15. #570
    Mugga, please. xhx23x's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pixie_Solanas View Post
    LOL, tell that to poor, dumb Echo. They couldn't even bother answering her calls.
    They considered her for a babysitting job so she was in their minds.

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