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  1. #391
    Illustrator of Stuff Ebonyleopard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    No. My point is why the Avengers assume the X-men are cool with the planet being destroyed. They've shown no trust in their ability to deal with the Phoenix, and went and tried to forcibly take Hope, thus causing this whole thing.

    Well...last time X-men and Avengers teamed up to face a major threat to life, they blipped out in the middle of the fight (Just recently in Uncanny when they ran off to 'save' Hope from Unit.) Cap basically said to Scott then, that he publicly said he wanted to protect the world but his actions said otherwise. Scott has become very very mutant centric lately and not protect all of humanity centric.
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  2. #392

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    Beast overestimates his knowledge and abilities regarding the Phoenix.


    Cap didn't understand. They were going to save Hope from an escaped prisoner. That was their task to save the world that issue. Cap was just being a jerk. And Scott knew that Hope was related to the Phoenix when she used it in Second Coming. He was thinking about the Phoenix when he ditched the Avengers. He knew they could handle the monster anyway. It wasn't a big deal. Unit is a big deal.
    Last edited by coveredinbees; 05-09-2012 at 08:23 PM.
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  3. #393
    Mugga, please. xhx23x's Avatar
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    I am not going to bother with someone who honestly thinks Logan and Beast are more Phoenix verse than Scott. Logan is under the illusion that killing the host solves the problem when it has never worked that way and Beast keeps throwing machines that never worked the first times at it.

    Scott was in a relationship with the Phoenix and the Phoenix host, and has Cable's future knowledge, and Rachel's support. what he and the x-men believe could happen is just as valid as what the Avengers thinks will happen base on the info they both have. The key difference here is that the Avengers let Wolverine goad them into a fight with the X-Men and are now lost what are the allies who dealt with the Phoenix the most and just keep further escalating the fight waving their suppose authority around.

  4. #394

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    Scott's a moron too. He knows less about the phoenix than beast. Really Cable, R'chel, and the shi'ar are more equipped to solve this mess than anyone else
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  5. #395
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonyleopard View Post
    Exactly my point. They've gone holier than thou, tunnel visioned instead of seeing the big picture. They're taking the "They're persecuting the mutants" line a bit too far (and let's not forget, it's not like the Avengers don't have mutants on their team either, and probably have done more public relations positive for Mutant acceptance when they accepted Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch in a public fashion while Prof. X was still having the OG team hide out in the shadows [I can't believe I'm defending the Avengers, that's how twisted the logic of this story is].
    Maybe they think that the Avengers plan puts the earth in far more danger than doing nothing does? Why the assumption that the folks who know comparatively little about the PF are right and the folks that include the only real expert on the PF are wrong?

    On the PR side the Avengers have attacked the home of other super-heroes and have imprisoned two groups of Mutant kids, Do you think that harms the X-men's PR campaign. Every step the Avengers take get them in deeper PR problems
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  6. #396
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonyleopard View Post
    The Avengers have currently the for most experts on their teams when it comes to first hand dealing with it either physically (Logan) and scientifically (Beast) and if even they can't handle it. And only reason it never destroyed the Earth is because it thought itself in love with Scott. Since the last time Scott encountered it he basically tried killing it, I'm not so sure this time (a Phoenix spurned) is a good thing (at least in the minds of Beast and Logan I'd assume). (And considering the X-Men's history of harboring mass murderers in the public's eye, looking at you Magneto who's now been on the team twice after being thought to have done something horrific) Can you really blame them?
    Wolverine and Beast are more expert than a long time successful Host?
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  7. #397
    salt in my porridge jarrod's Avatar
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    In Logan's defense, I think killing was more just an option he was keeping open going in. When he saw Hope standing all Phoenixed out over the lifeless bodies of the recruits/lights/NXM (including his #5 teen girl sidekick Pixie), he went on instinct.
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  8. #398
    Creamy Pink Perfection/Emma 2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teddyeatsyourface View Post
    too much fatty cholesterol
    Yes instant diabetes
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  9. #399
    Senior Member Moriarty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    Wolverine and Beast are more expert than a long time successful Host?
    yeah, i don't get that logic either.

  10. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonyleopard View Post
    Well...last time X-men and Avengers teamed up to face a major threat to life, they blipped out in the middle of the fight (Just recently in Uncanny when they ran off to 'save' Hope from Unit.) Cap basically said to Scott then, that he publicly said he wanted to protect the world but his actions said otherwise. Scott has become very very mutant centric lately and not protect all of humanity centric.
    And yet, in Avengers 25, Caps biggest concern was not the fate of the world, but in the Avengers getting "an unqualified win". And Cap's rebuke to Cyke in Uncanny was ass because Scott and his team went off to fight the most dangerous of the Peak escapees, which was the mission, after all.

  11. #401
    Illustrator of Stuff Ebonyleopard's Avatar
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    You aren't going to bother because you can't find many examples of where Scott know he was dealing with the Phoenix (not Jean) in written continuity. The Real Jean Grey didn't get her Phoenix force powers back until the Morrison run of New X-men and that didn't last long since she ended up being killed. I'm more than willing to be told I'm wrong if you back it up the claim against what I said.

    Logan has had to confront someone with out of control Phoenix powers as the point man on at least 4 occasions when they were in 'threat mode'. Beast has been forced to try to find some way to contain a cosmic force of nature at least 3 times now and on 2 accounts it did work, but not for long as the power of the Phoenix is almost limitless when it really gets going.

    Scott's 'relationship' with the Phoenix initially when he thought it was solely Jean Grey and he was totally powerless against it. No strategy he thought up even slowed it down on the first encounter. When Rachel had it and went crazy trying to kill hellfire club members, Scott wasn't even around and it was Logan that pretty much had to put a stop to her. In Endsong the Phoenix (or rather Jean) goes to Logan first, not Scott.

    Again, I like Scott, I love the X-men but the way he's being written he's acting reckless. He's got no personal experience that would result in a countermeasure of (what if this goes wrong) that could stop the Phoenix because nothing he's done in the past has ever done it (save for having Logan stab the host body). Hell, his own powers would only serve to make it stronger so he's not only useless against it, he's almost a danger to even have him around it.

    Cable's future knowledge? Yeah, that's been real reliable before. I don't seem to remember Cable figuring out why when on the run from Bishop why the world he'd Time Travel to was so wrecked to begin with. His love for her at worst blinded his judgement as much as the virus was doing.

    You're only real foot to stand on here is Rachael. But the problem with her is, she has no idea why it left her and the Phoenix blade high and dry at a time when she needed it the most. If she doesn't know why it left then she's got zero idea as of why it's coming back (well she wouldn't if the writers actually took not of that fact).

    And leaving a battle in the middle of it is like saying you have 2 crews of firefighters on the scene for a fire, but one group just decides to up and leave to go do something else somewhere else. Sure the crew left is capable of handling the fire still but it sure would have been easier if both crews stayed and finished the job (especially when it turned out that she was in not immediate physical threat from Unit anyway - since he obviously has plans for her of it's own).
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  12. #402
    Mugga, please. xhx23x's Avatar
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    I'm not dealing with you because your mind is already made up that the ones in the right are the Avengers. Yeah, Scott is not the Expert Phoenix affairs, but he has just a much knowledge about it as any other X-Man that's been closed to it. There's flaws and holes in both points of views, that's my main point. You're just assuming that the Avengers are in the right here.

    The story could go either way. The problem doesn't lie in who's right or wrong about what the outcome will be, the problem is that both teams are not finding common ground primarily cause of how the Avengers chose and continue to choose to act regarding how to respond to this event.

  13. #403

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonyleopard View Post
    And leaving a battle in the middle of it is like saying you have 2 crews of firefighters on the scene for a fire, but one group just decides to up and leave to go do something else somewhere else. Sure the crew left is capable of handling the fire still but it sure would have been easier if both crews stayed and finished the job (especially when it turned out that she was in not immediate physical threat from Unit anyway - since he obviously has plans for her of it's own).
    Jean had her Phoenix powers when she was hanging out with Xavier and Fantomex, and when she was psychically assaulting Emma.
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  14. #404
    salt in my porridge jarrod's Avatar
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    Captain Britain legitimately knows more about the Phoenix than Cyclops, Wolverine, Captain America, Iron Man and Beast combined. Gods only know why the 5 stooges are making all the decisions here.
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  15. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by xhx23x View Post
    I'm not dealing with you because your mind is already made up that the ones in the right are the Avengers. Yeah, Scott is not the Expert Phoenix affairs, but he has just a much knowledge about it as any other X-Man that's been closed to it. There's flaws and holes in both points of views, that's my main point. You're just assuming that the Avengers are in the right here.

    The story could go either way. The problem doesn't lie in who's right or wrong about what the outcome will be, the problem is that both teams are not finding common ground primarily cause of how the Avengers chose and continue to choose to act regarding how to respond to this event.
    Please don't pretend to know my mind. It's arrogant and rude to think so. If a logical argument can be made as to why Scott is willing to risk so much on a hunch then I'm all ears. And we're only talking about the facts we have about the story right now. I backed my opinion up with written fact from many books that came before. The fact is, the times Scott has dealt with the Phoenix he either didn't know he was doing so or simply wasn't around.

    Other characters can be called experts on the matter, but not him. So his leading the X-Men in an attempt to let the thing come to earth, take a host (which we've seen any time it's done so to any host that's not Jean or of her line, Rachael), nothing good has ever happened as a result. Necron, Kid Omega, for example.

    Now I don't agree with some of the HOW the Avengers are going about their business but I definitely can get behind the WHY as the risk/reward ratio is very high and why risk the planet on a hormonal Teenager with a imposed messiah complex who doesn't follow orders now as it is and she doesn't even have the powers of the phoenix yet.
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