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  1. #46
    Elder Member Ptrvc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radical View Post
    That would make an interesting debate.

    Batman: "Aside from the moral and ethical issues? Name one enemy of yours who's stayed dead."

    Punisher: "Mostly just the nobodies, and I've killed so many it's hard to keep track of 'em. It's likely I've killed some at least twice; they probably got some kinda mook factory that clones 'em or uses voodoo or something."

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    It doesn't really matter because nobody Batman puts behind bars stays there.

  2. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ptrvc View Post
    It doesn't really matter because nobody Batman puts behind bars stays there.
    Which is entirely due to plot devices, since their government chooses not to seek the death penalty for things that would qualify for it in real life and he *does* put money into Arkham's defenses as Bruce Wayne (in the Arkham Asylum game, he put in enough to have managed to sneak in an entire Batcave with functioning Bat Computer into it without even Oracle noticing it).

    Also, the official reason why he doesn't kill his villains -- disregarding the fact that sentencing them is where he usually cedes authority to the justice system, hence why there isn't even a Bat-Jail under Wayne Manor -- is because he knows that he is sufficiently unstable that he is just looking for an excuse to go on a spree that would make the Punisher go, "Damn." The Spectre even verified that Bruce is scared that he is only one bad day away from standing on a mountain of criminal corpses.
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  3. #48
    The Internet has spoken! Huey Freeman's Avatar
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    Why doesn't Batman kill the Joker? Why doesn't Superman melt his head with heat vision? Why doesn't Green Lantern throw him into the sun? Why is Batman the only hero held accountable for the Joker still being alive? Is it just because the Joker is most frequently seen in Gotham? Supes, GL and a host of other heroes have claimed to be planetary defenders and many of them have had encounters with the Joker. If Batman is responsible for all the lives the Joker has taken then so are they as they are no less capable, (in many cases, more so,) of killing the Joker or any other super criminal.

    The problem is that Batman is as crazy as the Joker. In as much as the Joker is a nihilist who believes life is a joke and death is the punchline, Batman is the opposite; a man who believes all life is worth preserving, even that of a irredeemable psychopath such as the Joker. Gotham is so incompetent that they need one crazy man to deal with the other. You can say that Batman is just playing around to deal with his trauma, but he has saved the entire planet, to say nothing of Gotham, on a number of occasions. I'm sorry but crazy or not, Batman has earned the right to deal with crime and criminals in the manner he utilizes, because it has been shown to deal quite efficiently with threats vastly more dangerous than the Joker. Overall, he does more good than harm.

    Really, you can't apply real world logic to anything in DC, even the comparably more realistic world of Batman. In the real world, even spotting Batman and Joker their comic level abilities and tech, the Joker would be dead or in a institution so well guarded, with security so tight, even he couldn't escape.

    In a world full of evil, extra-dimensional gods, hyper intelligent apes, magic wizards, time traveling cyborgs, the wrath of God manifested in human form and countless other weirdness and threats to the entire planet to say nothing of one city, the Joker is the least of anyone's concern. On DC Earth you're just as likely to be blighted from existence in some continuity reboot triggered by some nigh-omnipotent super being, (or an overzealous editor,) as killed by the Joker.

    Also, if we're sticking to comic logic, most of the important people the Joker has killed or hurt have gotten better. Complaining about people who exist simply to die and drive the dramatic tension and weight of a story doing just that is like complaining about Star Trek redshirts getting offed or random guys in a Bruce Lee flick getting their chests kicked in. It's what they're there for. And, again, are the hundreds of nobodies the Joker has killed worth giving Batman shit about in the face of the billions of nobodies he's saved fighting alongside the Justice League? Especially considering that Batman has still stemmed the Joker's body count considerably.

  4. #49
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    I'm more inclined to agree with the Punishers philosophy.

    Sometimes i think Batmans overly self righteous no kill policy is kinda selfish on his part.

  5. #50
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    The Joker IS as insane as you can get, too. Barring the whole debate on the death penalty anyway, which is silly, if anyone is truly insane, it's The Joker (and half of Batman's other rogues), so it's a horrible precedent to execute them since you're defeating the entire purpose of mental retribution/therapy (which is why the Joker is kept alive)

  6. #51
    I'm here for your women Oggy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Bravery View Post
    I'm more inclined to agree with the Punishers philosophy.

    Sometimes i think Batmans overly self righteous no kill policy is kinda selfish on his part.
    The problem with this however is that at what point do you draw that line? Cops, lawyers, judges, they all answer to a higher authority and when the sitution arises that their ethics are brought into question, they are brought before an inquiry to answer for their decisions. This is a failsafe to ensure there exists no abuse of power. What happens when a man who can casually walk into the White House decides to go on a murder spree with no accountability for his actions? Self-righteous it may be to seek to preserve life above all else, but Batman, crazy as he may be, at least understands the power he has to do really whatever the hell he wants. It's only his morality that keeps him from abusing that power.

    The Punisher on the other hand, seems pleasantly okay with killing indiscrimantly. This really creates a slippery slope, because how many people have lost their families due to violent crime? How many of them pick up guns and go on a murder spree because of it? Frankly, if there were copycats to exist from this incident, I'd hope they'd follow Bruce's route rather than Frank's, because the population of the large cities, in which I'm sure everyone has pissed off or wronged at least one other person, would turn into a blood bath with everyone wanting to kill each other.
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  7. #52
    Elder Member Ptrvc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abmccray View Post
    The Joker IS as insane as you can get, too. Barring the whole debate on the death penalty anyway, which is silly, if anyone is truly insane, it's The Joker (and half of Batman's other rogues), so it's a horrible precedent to execute them since you're defeating the entire purpose of mental retribution/therapy (which is why the Joker is kept alive)
    Thing is, unlike most people who plead insanity, JOKER KEEPS KILLING PEOPLE! Each time he isn't killed he's just going to escape again and guess what? Kill more innocents, considering how many times he's escaped and gone on a murder spree he's more than just a criminal charged with a crime, he is a clear and present danger to everyone in Gotham, yet he gets to live, and innocents get t die.

    Because apparently the life of one crazy psychopathic clown is worth that of untold amounts of innocents.

    I mean he shouldn't even be in Gotham's jurisdiction anymore, I'm pretty sure at that death total you'd be tried by the fricken geneva convention.

  8. #53
    Elder Member Froggy's Avatar
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    i'm pretty sure one day damian or jason will "kill" joker

    and by kill I mean leave him to die

    you KNOW this will happen

    plus yeah i agree with The Drunkard Kid, bats is afraid he's really straddling that thin line
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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oggy View Post
    The problem with this however is that at what point do you draw that line? Cops, lawyers, judges, they all answer to a higher authority and when the sitution arises that their ethics are brought into question, they are brought before an inquiry to answer for their decisions. This is a failsafe to ensure there exists no abuse of power. What happens when a man who can casually walk into the White House decides to go on a murder spree with no accountability for his actions? Self-righteous it may be to seek to preserve life above all else, but Batman, crazy as he may be, at least understands the power he has to do really whatever the hell he wants. It's only his morality that keeps him from abusing that power.

    The Punisher on the other hand, seems pleasantly okay with killing indiscrimantly. This really creates a slippery slope, because how many people have lost their families due to violent crime? How many of them pick up guns and go on a murder spree because of it? Frankly, if there were copycats to exist from this incident, I'd hope they'd follow Bruce's route rather than Frank's, because the population of the large cities, in which I'm sure everyone has pissed off or wronged at least one other person, would turn into a blood bath with everyone wanting to kill each other.
    Maybe i should have expanded. I don't fully agree with Frank's methods. He's a lunatic too.

    But when it comes to people like Joker? Just kill them. I would not be happy if there was someone like that running around in the real world and a guy who has had plenty of chances to kill him chose not to because of some silly no kill policy. And if he was in the real world, a cop would have shot him by now.

    When you think about it, the whole philosophy of "if i kill them then it makes me no better than who i'm fighting" is bullshit. Killing a mass murderer doesn't make you anything like them, it doesn't make you a bad guy.

    Obviously in the comics it's contrived because they are never ending stories and if the villains were killed off the writers would have to create new ones every other month. But if we're talking about in the real world hypothetically? Just kill the crazy bastards.

  10. #55
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    If we're talking about the real world, the point is moot because the Joker would likely never escape from Arkham in the first place, certainly not more than once. If we're talking about the comic book world, the point is moot because the Joker will come back from death, too, as long as he sells comics.
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  11. #56
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    But lets just say that Joker in the real world is a criminal mastermind like the comics. He can escape incarceration almost at will. Just kill the fucker.

  12. #57
    I'm here for your women Oggy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Bravery View Post
    But lets just say that Joker in the real world is a criminal mastermind like the comics. He can escape incarceration almost at will. Just kill the fucker.
    But again, this is a horrible slippery slope. I agree with you, the "if I kill them that makes me no better than the criminals I fight" is an absurd excuse to flaunt a characters superiority, but the life of a raging lunatic should not be decided by another lunatic who dresses like a giant bat. There has to be accountability for these actions, and with that said, it should be the legal system that makes this decision to execute him. Taking away the morality of the decision for a moment, allowing superheroes to kill their enemies such as Batman offing the Joker, should throw the door wide open for legalized vigilante justice in which any citizen would feel entitled to harm anyone who wronged them. This is an extreme example of course, stating that the whole of civilization would collapse because of one legal over sight, but the truth of the matter is, there are people who would grossly abuse that privlege, both in comic books and in the real world.

    As you stated, in the real world, any cop would have already killed the Joker, but the police have legal authorization to use deadly force in the event that innocent lives are at risk. And when that does happen, there is an inquiry and an investigation that results in determining if that officer's actions were justified. There is a system in place to prevent abuse of this authority. That is considerably different than allowing some maniac who dresses like a bat and jumps off buildings for a hobby to murder people to commit murder, because there is no accountability to his actions save his own morality that keeps him operating within the restrictions of the law. He is not a duly appointed official of the City of Gotham, and operates outside the law on a nightly basis. If he were indeed operating in the real world, he'd be arrested and thrown in jail by this point.
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  13. #58
    Sorcerer Gorthaur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Bravery View Post
    But lets just say that Joker in the real world is a criminal mastermind like the comics. He can escape incarceration almost at will. Just kill the fucker.
    In the real world, even criminal masterminds can't escape incarceration at will; especially not obviously omnicidal ones like the Joker. You're saying that killing the Joker is the only acceptable outcome because you won't accept any scenario in which it isn't necessary. But that has nothing to do with the real world anymore.
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  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Froggy View Post
    i'm pretty sure one day damian or jason will "kill" joker

    and by kill I mean leave him to die

    you KNOW this will happen

    plus yeah i agree with The Drunkard Kid, bats is afraid he's really straddling that thin line
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up7jPJXq-RY
    While I love Froggy's idea, I would also like something like the above, where Joker screws himself over.
    That or get killed by a random nobody. Just for the sheer humor of it.
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  15. #60
    Senior Member Dr Will Hatch's Avatar
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    Not to derail the topic, but didn't Joker survive getting shot point black in the head by a Gotham cop at some point? I thought remembered seeing that somewhere.

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