Movie Spider-Man v. The Avengers

[KJ Stewart]

Movie Spider-man's web is stupid fast and organic (so it's not limited by mechanical button presses). He can shoot + pull before Tony can think. "Crossing the distance" was just showing how much faster movie Spider-man is than Tony in reaction (he has jumped up 10-20 feet in the films, so three jumps forward before Tony flies up?). But that's pretty much irrelevant since he can just web + pull before Tony can react.

For web speed, depending on sequence, his shots to buildings to latch on to while swinging, which are oftentimes much farther (height + distance) than 100 feet are near instant. I wouldn't say bullet speed, but still quicker than someone can go see + think + activate since it would be happening instantly at the bell. Bell rings, Tony is hit by web and pulled to Spider-man nearly immediately.

Those aren't feats. Those are just your interpretations of what he did.

I'd like to see a specific feat that shows he can travel 100 feet before Tony thinks and is airborne. I'd like to see those webs travelling so fast that Tony can't think "fly", because I recall them being very visible whilst in motion (i.e. when he was firing them at the billboard or when he was firing them from the front of the train). Because, seriously, Tony can generally be hundreds of feet up within 2 seconds or so.

And I'm not sure how 10-20 feet equates to being able to jump to Tony (who would also be flying upwards) in 3 jumps? 10 feet means 10 jumps, 20 feet means 5 jumps (and again, that's only using the 100 foot thing, and assumes Tony is standing still)...

Flying upwards also means thrusters burning from hands and feet. Webbing that miraculously does manage to hit him before he's hundreds of feet in the air is just going to burn.

[abmccray]

Those aren't feats. Those are just your interpretations of what he did.

I'd like to see a specific feat that shows he can travel 100 feet before Tony thinks and is airborne. I'd like to see those webs travelling so fast that Tony can't think "fly", because I recall them being very visible whilst in motion (i.e. when he was firing them at the billboard or when he was firing them from the front of the train). Because, seriously, Tony can generally be hundreds of feet up within 2 seconds or so.

And I'm not sure how 10-20 feet equates to being able to jump to Tony (who would also be flying upwards) in 3 jumps? 10 feet means 10 jumps, 20 feet means 5 jumps (and again, that's only using the 100 foot thing, and assumes Tony is standing still)...

Flying upwards also means thrusters burning from hands and feet. Webbing that miraculously does manage to hit him before he's hundreds of feet in the air is just going to burn.

- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGeOjK0I7JY . Look at his swings. The length of his webs are going a hundred and in some cases hundreds of feet in some shots in the films in fractions of seconds. He's putting his full weight on the webs as soon as he shoots them in some instances, and they're immediately taunt, and reaching far out of the screen and allowing him to rotate around buildings/the length of blocks with some of his swings. It's not "interpretation"; it's the only way it is possible to do what he's doing on screen. When he's animated "pulling up" on a web as soon as he shoots it in the film, it's already reached that distance. And there is no travel time seen.

- People jump longer than they jump high. An athlete jumps 9 feet in a standing long jump as opposed to 2.5 feet vertically. If someone can jump as high as Spider-man does, as quick as he does, he can do the same just as quickly 3 times as far towards something.

- I don't know where you're getting "miraculously" from. Spider-man's webbing travels ridiculously fast in any swinging scene. There are times in the movies where you can see it travel - normally when he's fighting someone or for effect, but in the actual majority of instances, it's near - instant travel for that distance.

[big_adventure]

Spider-man held a tram car full of people up with one arm. That's holding up around 20tons or so with an arm (which isn't the same as lifting, either). Cap is nowhere near in his league.

I think that car was made of paper maché or something. Goblin held it one handed at such an angle that the force multiplication made it a class 90-type feat. That was pretty ridiculous.

[KJ Stewart]

- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGeOjK0I7JY . Look at his swings. The length of his webs are going a hundred and in some cases hundreds of feet in some shots in the films in fractions of seconds. He's putting his full weight on the webs as soon as he shoots them in some instances, and they're immediately taunt, and reaching far out of the screen and allowing him to rotate around buildings/the length of blocks with some of his swings. It's not "interpretation"; it's the only way it is possible to do what he's doing on screen. When he's animated "pulling up" on a web as soon as he shoots it in the film, it's already reached that distance. And there is no travel time seen.

- People jump longer than they jump high. An athlete jumps 9 feet in a standing long jump as opposed to 2.5 feet vertically. If someone can jump as high as Spider-man does, as quick as he does, he can do the same just as quickly 3 times as far towards something.

- I don't know where you're getting "miraculously" from. Spider-man's webbing travels ridiculously fast in any swinging scene. There are times in the movies where you can see it travel - normally when he's fighting someone or for effect, but in the actual majority of instances, it's near - instant travel for that distance.

OK, let's get back to the original point because I feel this is going nowhere.

Spider-Man won't be swinging towards Tony. Not in Khazan, because there's nothing to swing on. So how is he physically getting 100 feet before Tony is hundreds of feet in the air?

He never, ever, ever showed groundspeed of that level. And then he'd have to fire the webs after that (or sometime during that journey). Which leads me to the next point...

As is being discussed in another thread right now, Tony's dodging of the tank's missile in Iron Man 1 shows reactions enough to easily dodge webbing anyway. Let alone webbing that is being fired after Spidey has had to travel along the ground. And let alone while Iron Man is also flying upwards at the same time.

And then there's the fact that Iron Man's thrusters should just burn it away.

And then there's the fact that, even if they didn't burn the webs away, Iron Man is travelling with considerably more thrust than a train. And Spidey needed 12 lots of webbing to stop the train (and Spidey isn't doing that faster than Tony can move). And even then it took a while to slow the train down. Iron Man is just gonna drag Spidey behind him while firing lasers down at him as he lags behind.

[abmccray]

Why is Spiderman traveling anywhere when his webs go more than 100 feet UPWARDS practically instantly (see linked clips)? At the bell ring, Tony has a web attached and is pulled to Spiderman within the first second. See the linked clip again. While he's thinking and activating "fly" he's already at Spider-man.

That's what you're missing. Spider-man's webs are attaching to buildings at bullet like speed, and he's bullet time range reflexes with enough pulling strength to hold 20 tons. Fight starts, web-pull, grab helmet, lift, all in a blink of an eye.

[Zagreus]

I think it's possible for Spidey to quickly yank Iron Man down out of the air from 100 feet away. That's a reasonable Spidey feat from the movies. He's got the strength, accuracy, and what have you. Or just stay attached to Tony as he continues upward ascent. Either way, Tony has this. He could laser the web off. He could use the flares (was that what they were called- when he blasted the ice off in Iron Man) and blast the webs off if he were some how encased in webbing. He seems to have a lot more lasers now in Avengers plus area attacks. Spidey is not getting that armor off. He might lick or two in, try to web Tony at the bell or pull him out of the air, or some shenanigans. Ultimately though, Pete would go down, because he has nothing.

He might dodge for a little bit, until Tony injures him with an area attack. Pete would probably try a web gob for the eyes or something, but I can't see that stopping Tony for long. And that is all Pete has. Too weak to damage him. Can't contain him with webs. Can dodge for a little bit. Can't out run him. Can't tear off the armor unless Tony just stands there and lets him, which he won't. Anyway, my 2 cents.

[Syrile Demonthyst]

I can't even believe it's being discussed that Spider-Man might be able to beat Iron Man.

I am of the same opinion here..
I feel like people on each side of this argument have watched different movies.

As to what I think about this fight specifically:
Question 1: Do we have any Bullet Time feats for Spidey?
Question 2: Has anyone thought of the reflexes that Iron Man displayed?
I mean, at 78:53 seconds he casually shifted to dodge a canister shell from a tank.
To give you an idea of how fast that is, it equates out to about 3,154 MPH, or 5,076 KMP for those of you who prefer that.
Way faster than a bullet. So yeah, I am not seeing Spiderman having all that much better reflexes to be honest.

And well... even if he did, is there anything to suggest that he could actually dismantle the suit while it is functioning?
I mean, he is certainly not damaging the suit itself so yeah.. I do not know what he could actually do here.
Iron Man is also stronger than him as well.. and has AoE attacks..
I am at a loss as to why all of this needs said.

[FalconX2000]

Movie Spider-Man isn't a bullet timer, unless I'm failing to remember some incredible speed feat.

I do happen to think he has a better than even chance of catching Iron Man with his webbing before he can fly out of range at the starting bell. It's not really going to make a difference though. On the off chance Tony doesn't just blast the webbing off with his weapons, Iron Man is still considerably stronger than Spider-Man and durable enough to shrug off anything Spidey throws at him. And then he'll just fly off again. Spidey'll be lucky to scratch the paint.

[Siriel]

Question 2: Has anyone thought of the reflexes that Iron Man displayed?
I mean, at 78:53 seconds he casually shifted to dodge a canister shell from a tank.
To give you an idea of how fast that is, it equates out to about 3,154 MPH, or 5,076 KMP for those of you who prefer that.
Way faster than a bullet. So yeah, I am not seeing Spiderman having all that much better reflexes to be honest.

Spiderman's ability or inability to hurt Iron Man aside, I am going to go ahead and say that claiming that instance was anything beside aim-dodging is ridiculous unless Iron Man showed superspeed in The Avengers.

[Arachnid]

Movie Spider-Man isn't a bullet timer, unless I'm failing to remember some incredible speed feat.

I do happen to think he has a better than even chance of catching Iron Man with his webbing before he can fly out of range at the starting bell. It's not really going to make a difference though. On the off chance Tony doesn't just blast the webbing off with his weapons, Iron Man is still considerably stronger than Spider-Man and durable enough to shrug off anything Spidey throws at him. And then he'll just fly off again. Spidey'll be lucky to scratch the paint.

Spidey's bullet time in the movies were called into question a while back in a different debate. Everyone decided that he was a bullet timer because of 2 instances where he dodged gun fire. The first one was in the first movie when a thug unloaded two bullets on him and spidey flipped to avoid it. I cant remember what the second one was, but I think it was when he dodged gunfire in the second movie from some thugs he was chasing in a car. Those scenes were quick and didn't show the bullets in slo-mo, but I think those scenes were to get across the idea that he could dodge bullets.

[Becoming An Anthropologist]

I looked over the first scene of spidey in movie 1. It was crazier than I remembered. Some guy spitting water out of a straw was flying through the air in slow motion, along with a fly wing flapping, and people being unable to blink in what was about 5 seconds equivalent spidey slow time.

[Sharpandpointies]

I looked over the first scene of spidey in movie 1. It was crazier than I remembered. Some guy spitting water out of a straw was flying through the air in slow motion, along with a fly wing flapping, and people being unable to blink in what was about 5 seconds equivalent spidey slow time.

Same scene, when Flash throws a punch at Peter, he actually shifts out of the way, THEN looks up and down Flash's extended arm with this 'hmm, how about that!' expression on his face.

Flash is essentially moving in extreeeeme....sloooooow....moooootion.

[abmccray]

Yes, as I said a couple of times earlier (how did that get missed), the speed in which we saw Peter's Spider-sense and reaction working in the Flash Thomson scene puts him in bullet time territory. He was at a CASUAL level of reaction for him, and ramped up, a simple jab + return, something that takes a quarter second to do, was something he could basically stop, look at, casually, and move around to a level of slow motion where it was near-paused to him - and this is him just being surprised at his general, casual reaction time. That level of speed is basically bullet time, and the perspective of someone with those level reactions. Meanwhile, his spider-sense worked at a level where things actually WERE paused until he got the stimuli. Combining the two, and seeing multiple sequences where he dodged bullets, there's no reason you wouldn't give him those reactions.

Given that Iron Man's suit is apparently screwed together (see how the Mk2 suit is put on him in Avengers) it has seams, and there's no reason to think that pulling up with enough strength to hold 20 tons with one arm on, say, the helmet, wouldn't rip it off. It takes a ton of blunt impact, but it has not been tested against that type of damage.

[FalconX2000]

Same scene, when Flash throws a punch at Peter, he actually shifts out of the way, THEN looks up and down Flash's extended arm with this 'hmm, how about that!' expression on his face.

Flash is essentially moving in extreeeeme....sloooooow....moooootion.

At first I was wondering how Peter was doing this to The Flash, and when the latter appeared in the Spider-Man movie.

[Sharpandpointies]

At first I was wondering how Peter was doing this to The Flash, and when the latter appeared in the Spider-Man movie.

Yes, I should probably have added 'Thompson' in there somewhere. :D