Avengers Thor vs Movie Green Lantern

[Holacik]

Asgardians travel across space quite a bit though, seemingly. And Loki certainly survived space.

Thor isn't Loki. Technically, they aren't even related so I don't see any reason to grant Thor the ability to survive space.

Plus, I don't think Hal's constructs showed that kind of power.

I completely agree with that, even if they were I don't see why Thor couldn't smash them.

[big_adventure]

I completely agree with that, even if they were I don't see why Thor couldn't smash them.

Exactly - his best construct feat was that ridiculous slot-car set he used to slow and halt the helicopter, and even then the thing was falling apart under the forces. Thor would have reached out a hand and caught it dead (like catching the Hulk's hardcore pound attempt).

[Lord Bravery]

I think the Asgardians must be able to survive in space. They travel through the BiFrost which basically shoots them in beams through space.

[big_adventure]

I think the Asgardians must be able to survive in space. They travel through the BiFrost which basically shoots them in beams through space.

It's questionable enough that I don't think we can handwave the ability based on the bifrost performance. I'm not saying that they CAN'T, just that we don't yet have enough evidence to show it for sure. Bifrost was a REALLLLLLLY powerful tool that might well have provided protection for passengers.

Points along that line of reasoning:
1. The aforementioned bifrost thing - which could be explained in many ways that don't include vacuum survival.
2. Thor hanging off the edge of Asgard over the void - he might or might not have been in atmosphere, so this is also not a sure-fire feat.
3. Loki surviving in that void, Loki surviving on the Chitauri asteroid - Well, Thor isn't Loki. I seriously doubt that Loki can survive anywhere that Thor cannot, and I seriously doubt that a Jotun (Loki) has any durability greater than even a baseline Asgardian (given what the Warriors Three and Sif were doing to them, to say nothing of Thor basically kicking the entire race's ass). However, the fact remains that this is Loki's feat and not Thor's. I think that Thor's body can take space just fine (his durability is massive), I just don't know if he needs to breathe or not.

Points about Thor's needing to breathe or not - well, he showed up high, high over Earth in Avengers and landed on a streaking Quinjet at what appears to be very high altitude, while moving at many hundreds of mph. He also clearly flies at supersonic speeds without any kind of mask or anything else to protect him. So his need to breathe is obviously much less than a normal human, since humans couldn't survive any of those conditions without prep/equipment.

I would say that even a space-toss would be unlikely to kill him, in such a case, since he could just fly back while holding his breath.

EDIT: I should have mentioned that I don't think a space-toss TO ORBIT or around that level would kill him, as he'd have time to come back. If you Gladiatored him into the sun, that's different.

It doesn't matter here, of course, since Hal's both too slow to grab Thor in a pincher, and has never demonstrated anything close to space-toss level strength.

[Becoming An Anthropologist]

It's questionable enough that I don't think we can handwave the ability based on the bifrost performance. I'm not saying that they CAN'T, just that we don't yet have enough evidence to show it for sure. Bifrost was a REALLLLLLLY powerful tool that might well have provided protection for passengers.

Points along that line of reasoning:
1. The aforementioned bifrost thing - which could be explained in many ways that don't include vacuum survival.
2. Thor hanging off the edge of Asgard over the void - he might or might not have been in atmosphere, so this is also not a sure-fire feat.
3. Loki surviving in that void, Loki surviving on the Chitauri asteroid - Well, Thor isn't Loki. I seriously doubt that Loki can survive anywhere that Thor cannot, and I seriously doubt that a Jotun (Loki) has any durability greater than even a baseline Asgardian (given what the Warriors Three and Sif were doing to them, to say nothing of Thor basically kicking the entire race's ass). However, the fact remains that this is Loki's feat and not Thor's. I think that Thor's body can take space just fine (his durability is massive), I just don't know if he needs to breathe or not.

Points about Thor's needing to breathe or not - well, he showed up high, high over Earth in Avengers and landed on a streaking Quinjet at what appears to be very high altitude, while moving at many hundreds of mph. He also clearly flies at supersonic speeds without any kind of mask or anything else to protect him. So his need to breathe is obviously much less than a normal human, since humans couldn't survive any of those conditions without prep/equipment.

I would say that even a space-toss would be unlikely to kill him, in such a case, since he could just fly back while holding his breath.

EDIT: I should have mentioned that I don't think a space-toss TO ORBIT or around that level would kill him, as he'd have time to come back. If you Gladiatored him into the sun, that's different.

It doesn't matter here, of course, since Hal's both too slow to grab Thor in a pincher, and has never demonstrated anything close to space-toss level strength.

You're going a bit to far when it comes to Thor. Guys flying fast isn't a reason to assume they get more oxygen. It's fiction. Nathan from heroes broke supersonic speeds and was flying above the clouds, it doesn't mean he can breath any better. Flying fast doesn't require more oxygen, just like running fast doesn't require more oxygen. That sort of thing is almost universally ignored.

[big_adventure]

You're going a bit to far when it comes to Thor. Guys flying fast isn't a reason to assume they get more oxygen. It's fiction. Nathan from heroes broke supersonic speeds and was flying above the clouds, it doesn't mean he can breath any better. Flying fast doesn't require more oxygen, just like running fast doesn't require more oxygen. That sort of thing is almost universally ignored.

Actually, I'm not at all. It's a feat. It's a questionable feat, but it's still a feat. And it's not PIS or SMvFL, because it's totally consistent and repeated. In the case of Nathan, for example, we have to assume that his powerset includes the ability to either breathe at high speeds, or reduce his consummation of air while flying. I would say the former rather than the later in his case, since his physiology is still basically human. Thor's isn't human - he's not a human at all, so there is no need to explain why his body behaves in a different fashion from baseline human. Asgardians or Thunder Gods just might not need much or any air. We don't know, so we use the best evidence we have to form a realistic conclusion. I would say that his feats support him needing less-than-human amounts of oxygen. Feel free to disagree and feel even freer to debate this, but using Nathan Petrelli is NOT a valid argument for whether or not Thor needs oxygen.

[Becoming An Anthropologist]

Evidently you saw a different movie than I did. The hammerswing-deflections alone are arguably well above CBPH - especially given the range he had to react and hit the incoming blast with a swing.

We'll need the blu-ray to be able to see just how fast those blasts travelled (by estimating the distance and counting the frames to cross it). Here's the thing - it's an incredibly hard thing to hit a ball thrown at only 146 feet per second (a baseball at 100mph) when you are 60 feet away, when you have a light stick in your hand and when you know roughly where the ball is aimed. The athletes with the very best hand-eye coordination in the world don't manage it more than 40% of the time, when they have the exact range and the exact timing of the delivery, when they are not being threatened and they only have that one thing to defend. Thor was casually swatting back blasts from closer range in mid-combat, blasts that definitely moved faster than that (not saying that they were lightspeed - they were not - just that they were faster than baseballs), without any "wind up" or other way to time the shot (Destroyer blasts not included - he had the glowing head thing going on) and when he actually tried to do it, he never once missed the deflection. With a SWING, not by holding the hammer in the path. That's not the same thing as dodging the shot, it's MUCH harder. Don't believe me? Try this: have someone stand 30 feet from you and throw a ball at you as hard as they can. You ought to be able to dodge it, at least most of the time. Now try taking a bat and hitting that same ball with a swing - and NOT when the are throwing it into a nice defined box in front of you, but rather when they are aiming it at you.

Doing what Thor did is not "fast human". It is outside the capability of, for example, Batman or Cap, pretty much the textbook CBPH guys. I mean, unless you have feats of Batman swinging a hammer to deflect fast energy blasts at close range. Movie Thor did it from no more than 15 feet away to Loki, and from perhaps 20-25 (and more) against the Chitauri.

And then there is this one. The random energy blast from Chiatauri were still visible too us on screen from what I recall. As such, at best, they were maybe travelling hawkeyes arrow types of speed. They never crossed distance like his smacking the carrier. Batman or Cap could deal with that. An alternative side by side would be Ollie Green Arrow firing on them from 10 feet away. Once again, they could swing at the arrow. That's what Thor was doing given he needs very little precision given the size of his invulnerable hammer.

As for Loki, well, what he did isn't above Tim casually snatching half a dozen arrows out of the air. All the more so because I don't find the camera made it terribly clear at what point Loki actually spotted the arrow coming at him.

[Sharpandpointies]

Tim Drake has never casually snatched a half-dozen arrows out of the air.

At best, he has caught two arrows loosed simultaneously during a training session and managed to karate chop a couple of out the air while taking hits from others.

Casually snatching a half-dozen out of the air is more in line with Constantine Drakon.

[Lord Bravery]

And then there is this one. The random energy blast from Chiatauri were still visible too us on screen from what I recall. As such, at best, they were maybe travelling hawkeyes arrow types of speed. They never crossed distance like his smacking the carrier. Batman or Cap could deal with that. An alternative side by side would be Ollie Green Arrow firing on them from 10 feet away. Once again, they could swing at the arrow. That's what Thor was doing given he needs very little precision given the size of his invulnerable hammer.

As for Loki, well, what he did isn't above Tim casually snatching half a dozen arrows out of the air. All the more so because I don't find the camera made it terribly clear at what point Loki actually spotted the arrow coming at him.

Well Cap couldn't deal with it, because he got shot in the gut even with his shield. The energy bolts were clearly moving faster than arrows. They were moving faster than Iron Man could fly.

And Loki caught the arrow without looking, then turned to give Hawkeye a smug grin.

[Becoming An Anthropologist]

Actually, I'm not at all. It's a feat. It's a questionable feat, but it's still a feat. And it's not PIS or SMvFL, because it's totally consistent and repeated. In the case of Nathan, for example, we have to assume that his powerset includes the ability to either breathe at high speeds, or reduce his consummation of air while flying. I would say the former rather than the later in his case, since his physiology is still basically human. Thor's isn't human - he's not a human at all, so there is no need to explain why his body behaves in a different fashion from baseline human. Asgardians or Thunder Gods just might not need much or any air. We don't know, so we use the best evidence we have to form a realistic conclusion. I would say that his feats support him needing less-than-human amounts of oxygen. Feel free to disagree and feel even freer to debate this, but using Nathan Petrelli is NOT a valid argument for whether or not Thor needs oxygen.

Thor landing on the craft from unknown ( and I stress unknown) but high altitude was repeated in the human world. In his own movie he'd barely gone up made a thousand feet when dispatching the Destroyer Armor. And it was clear being transported between world offered protection. The same with Asgard having some kind of mystical "oxygen field. otherwise Thor offering to take Jane up to Asgard would be a death sentence. Edit: I only mention this since you're discussing abilities he should be granted based on physiology, of which there is no real proof of. For all we can know,since a human can't fly in the first place,Thor could have " a mystical protection" while in flight. I.E. Flight aura protection the same as nathan. it's no more or less likely than super lungs...

I don't recall a single other instance in Avengers where Thor clearly passes the clouds. Additionally, anything under about 15 000 ft is a non feat in terms of better breathing. I've sky-dived. I had no trouble at such altitudes.

[Lord Bravery]

Why would Thor take Jane to Asgard when he's about to go fight his maniacal brother? And you can't assume anything about Asgard having some kind of mystical oxygen field.

[big_adventure]

And then there is this one. The random energy blast from Chiatauri were still visible too us on screen from what I recall. As such, at best, they were maybe travelling hawkeyes arrow types of speed. They never crossed distance like his smacking the carrier. Batman or Cap could deal with that. An alternative side by side would be Ollie Green Arrow firing on them from 10 feet away. Once again, they could swing at the arrow. That's what Thor was doing given he needs very little precision given the size of his invulnerable hammer.

As for Loki, well, what he did isn't above Tim casually snatching half a dozen arrows out of the air. All the more so because I don't find the camera made it terribly clear at what point Loki actually spotted the arrow coming at him.

The "visible" argument is used a lot on the board: saying that "bullets aren't visible, therefore if you can see it, it's much slower than a bullet", but that's a patently false argument. You can't see bullets because they are small, fast AND don't emit radiated energy. You can quite clearly see tracer bullets fired from a .50 cal at 3000 feet per second - probably 10 times the speed of an arrow even from Hawkeye/Ollie. That's the whole reason that they use tracer bullets - they are just white-phosphorus tipped bullets, so they burn a little and therefore emit light. This lets a machine gunner "walk" the shots into their targets. Granted, a normal human speed person can't DO anything about those tracer shots since the bullets are still moving at velocities way past their reaction speed, but you can see them much more easily.

That's why I said we need the blu-ray. Once we have that in hand, we can gauge the distance, and then count the frames between the source and the target. If the distance is 50 feet, and the frame rate is 24 frames per second (that's analog movie-theatre standard frame rate), and it takes 2 frames to cover the 50 feet, we can say that the beam is moving at 600fps - about what a low-power handgun bullet travels. If it takes 4 frames to cover 50 feet, it's 300 fps - ultra-high-end arrow speed. If the beam covers 300 feet (or so) in 3 frames at 60frames/s (the frame rate at 1080p60), it's 9000 fps - triple the speed of a VERY high powered rifle bullet. It won't be perfect because we won't KNOW the exact distance, and I'm sure it won't really be consistent shot-to-shot, but it'll be better than saying "I can see it, so it's not as fast as a bullet that I can't see." Because that's just a silly thing to say.

[big_adventure]

I don't recall a single other instance in Avengers where Thor clearly passes the clouds. Additionally, anything under about 15 000 ft is a non feat in terms of better breathing. I've sky-dived. I had no trouble at such altitudes.

I've done that, and I'm an extremely accomplished climber as well, having done climbs to over 15000 feet (Mont Blanc for example) and many peaks in the 13-14K range. I also studied biology in school. Let me explain about breathing at altitude:

First, you acclimate yourself slightly just by taking the slow cruise to altitude in a slow moving, non-pressurized airplane.

Second, you are not engaging in strenuous activity at that altitude. If you did, you would notice that you would become short of breath almost immediately, that you would expend nearly all of your reserves of strength quickly, your muscles would burn due to massive lactic acid accumulation from anaerobic cellular respiration as you would not be able to get enough oxygen to keep it aerobic. The only way to keep your respiration aerobic at altitude is to acclimate to the altitude. When you climb, you don't arrive from sea level and sprint to 15000 feet the first day - there aren't that many people who would even be capable of such a thing. No, you arrive at the 3K-5K or whatever base, you are there for a few days, and then you have a better base to continue. If you are climbing to 20K+ feet, you typically arrive at a much higher base, and you make several smaller climbs nearby to acclimate to the altitude. Your body can adapt, but not instantly.

Third, altitude is inverse logarithmic to air pressure - at Everest height, 29000 feet, there is one third the air pressure as there is at sea level. Thanks, gravity! If you teleported from sea level to everest height, you would definitely have nearly immediate altitude sickness, and almost certainly would suffer cerebral and/or pulmonary edema. These things are fatal - not instantly, but often rapidly, and the only treatment is immediate decent. If you are acclimated by spending time at high altitude before (Everest base camp is 17000 feet, for example, arrived at by a long trip from much lower elevations), these problems are much less common.

Fourth, in the plane, you are protected from the speed, so you are not having speed-related breathing problems.

Fifth, when you jump, you are never going above 130-140 mph, and you are mostly going slower than that (90mph or so) since you are in a spread position.

Thor, on the other hand, teleports in, likely to altitude (we don't know, but it seems a safe assumption), casually catches up to a speeding quinjet probably in the 30-40K foot range (given the visible tops of cumulonimbus clouds, perhaps higher) , enters said jet, and soars off with his brother at extremely high speed. All of this is unprotected by any mask or anything else.

[big_adventure]

They were moving faster than Iron Man could fly.

Good point - they were significantly faster than IM was flying in the city. Assuming he was keeping speed down to 300-400mph in the city with all the "traffic"...

That at least should place the bolts as supersonic.

[QuickDevilRed]

Tim Drake has never casually snatched a half-dozen arrows out of the air.

At best, he has caught two arrows loosed simultaneously during a training session and managed to karate chop a couple of out the air while taking hits from others.

Casually snatching a half-dozen out of the air is more in line with Constantine Drakon.

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