View Poll Results: Should The Black Widow become a crime fighting partner for Spider-Man?

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  • Yes

    13 13.13%
  • No

    86 86.87%
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  1. #61
    Senior Member Ziggy Stardust's Avatar
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    While Peter was drawn to Nancy Rushman, he still felt something towards her and visa versa by story's end.

    And Natasha was sort of wondering what could have happened had her life been different...

    Like I said, despite any romance, I found the stories with her were usually good.

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
    While Peter was drawn to Nancy Rushman, he still felt something towards her and visa versa by story's end.

    And Natasha was sort of wondering what could have happened had her life been different...

    Like I said, despite any romance, I found the stories with her were usually good.
    He felt sad for Nancy, and so did Natasha. She has to give up a lot to be tough the way she is… that is how I interpreted that scene, she's a bit sad to know she'll never have a normal life. Not that she wants to be with Peter. For me that entire story is Claremont shining a light on why they're incompatible. They don't work, unless Natasha completely changes her character. And she can't be a superhero if she does that.

  3. #63
    MXAAGVNIEETRO were right The Black Guardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    I would think Natasha is pretty open sexualy. She's from the school of Nick Fury and Wolverine except that she is a woman in that it's not an issue for her, she's a old school warrior and I think she would probably pick up a guy in a bar and relieve herself. Simple as that. So making Peter her lover would not be a big deal. Plus Peter has grown up over the time. Forget the Bendis jokey characterisation, Peter is not the teeny stupid hero anymore, he's an experienced adult super-hero. Things change.
    The fact that you can write "Bendis jokey characterization" tells me that you know absolutely nothing about Spider-Man. The jokey characterization is the core of what Spider-Man is and always has been (Bendis doesn't have anything to do with it), and it's got nothing whatsoever to do with not being an adult. This is a part of Spider-Man that can never, ever be removed, except in the short term. Joking is how Peter naturally deals with life's ups and especially downs. It's not a sign of immaturity. And above all, it's what makes Spider-Man such a loved character. Spider-Man and Deadpool are basically the same character, except for Peter's scientific background and moral compass.

    Anyway, Natasha is fairly open sexually, but that has nothing to do with anything. She's far too serious to ever be with someone like Peter. And the feeling is probably mutual. She likely scares the crap out of Peter. They do not have the same moral/ethical beliefs. Everything that is necessary for even the start of a good relationship fails between them.

    And the idea of sticking them together because they are both spider-themed character is just absurd.
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  4. #64
    Senior Member Ziggy Stardust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hrist View Post
    He felt sad for Nancy, and so did Natasha. She has to give up a lot to be tough the way she is… that is how I interpreted that scene, she's a bit sad to know she'll never have a normal life. Not that she wants to be with Peter. For me that entire story is Claremont shining a light on why they're incompatible. They don't work, unless Natasha completely changes her character. And she can't be a superhero if she does that.
    Yeah, I can see that. But, in essence, he also showed that within Natasha lives a woman who has the things that could have made them work. It's what surfaced when her mind could not longer deal with the torture.

    So, the ending was almost a "what could have been" to me. And, if anything, if Spidey and the Widow were casual team-ups as the OP suggested, who's to stop them from being intimate friends when they both need it?

  5. #65
    Senior Member Ziggy Stardust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Guardian View Post
    The fact that you can write "Bendis jokey characterization" tells me that you know absolutely nothing about Spider-Man. The jokey characterization is the core of what Spider-Man is and always has been (Bendis doesn't have anything to do with it), and it's got nothing whatsoever to do with not being an adult.
    If anything, I think Bendis sometimes misses the point with Spidey and makes him TOO jokey and not sensitive enough.

    Example: Spidey has had quite a few team ups with the Vision in the past. He's consoled the Vision and got enraged when he thought a wizard had "killed" the Vision by taking over the Vision's body.

    Bendis wrote Spidey as calling Vision "just a robot" when he learned Wanda had essentially killed him off.

    WAY off base, Brian!

    Peter uses humor to keep an even keel and deal with hard situations. He also uses it to distract and annoy opponents. BUT, Peter is not an insensitive and uncaring fellow. And that scene made him appear totally socially inept and unfeeling. WAY off the mark.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
    Yeah, I can see that. But, in essence, he also showed that within Natasha lives a woman who has the things that could have made them work. It's what surfaced when her mind could not longer deal with the torture.

    So, the ending was almost a "what could have been" to me. And, if anything, if Spidey and the Widow were casual team-ups as the OP suggested, who's to stop them from being intimate friends when they both need it?
    Well, their actual personalities, for one. The Nancy Rushman personality was later revealed to be part of a SHIELD defense against mind control/torture, not necessarily an extension of Natasha. But really, by deconstructing Black Widow like that, Claremont was highlighting her personality, her force of will, her fearlessness. Since she doesn't have powers, she really is just another person on the street when she forgets herself. Without that strength of character, she doesn't have any strength. Surely it would be terrible for Natasha to act weak and helpless in order to be more sexually enticing to Spider-man?

    I mean yeah, there is a melancholy feeling of what could have been, because Nancy Rushman was happy, and Natasha hasn't lead a happy life. She could have been an ordinary woman, the kind of woman guys like Peter would have liked, but in the end, she chooses not to be.

  7. #67
    Senior Member Ziggy Stardust's Avatar
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    See, while Peter has had his share of weak women in his life, he's also had the strong ones. And I would not want to see Natasha be weak for Spidey's sake. What Peter needs is strong women. If nothing else, Aunt May has gone from the frail old lady who was fainting and having a heart attack every month to a woman who knew Peter was Spidey and supported him despite that. Even Mary Jane went from a shrieking hostage to a woman who could protect herself when required.

    I never knew that part about the Nancy Rushman thing being a sort of implant. I must have missed that part. And I would LOATHE Natasha being made into what she was when she was used as Daredevil's love interest just to make Matt seem more powerful. I HATED that. So, when Smith wrote her as easily dominated by Daredevil.... well, let's just say I was NOT happy.

    I'm not saying I want Peter and Natasha to be an item. I'm not saying she should role play to get him interested.

    I'm saying they have enough history and Peter is now secure enough that they could work as casually intimate friends who happen to work on certain cases together. We all know that Spidey is out of his element when the story involves espionage an shadow ops type environment. In the stories where they work together this would actually allow NATASHA ot be the one in charge and leading.

    Would that be so bad?

  8. #68
    Pure Hellcatnip Lady_Alternate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
    Would that be so bad?
    Taking into account her development under Liu's pen, development in Secret Avengers and her relationship with Bucky... yes. It would be a step back, not a step forward.
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  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
    I never knew that part about the Nancy Rushman thing being a sort of implant. I must have missed that part. And I would LOATHE Natasha being made into what she was when she was used as Daredevil's love interest just to make Matt seem more powerful. I HATED that. So, when Smith wrote her as easily dominated by Daredevil.... well, let's just say I was NOT happy.
    The Nancy Rushman is an implant thing was a later development, so.

    I'm not very fond of that scene in Kevin Smith's Daredevil, but the point there was Matt's underlying misogyny, that he was willing to see evil even from people who offered him good. It wasn't that Natasha couldn't fight back (and later on in the arc she has him pinned in a panel) but that she was strong enough not to. That doesn't mean it wasn't upsetting to see a superheroine beaten up to prove a point like that, but Natasha was not Matt's love interest to make him seem more powerful. Back in the day, she challenged him every step of the way— but still, it made her seem like a weaker character, because on a fundamental level, the book was Daredevil, and Natasha was there to play love interest. They made enormous concessions to Natasha's plotline back in the 1970s with Daredevil, retitling the book, moving in Natasha's supporting cast, &c, stuff they would never do with Spider-man, but she was still sort of short changed.

    That is just what happens when established superheroines get written as love interests! That is exactly what Claremont was commenting on in that Nancy Rushman story, I suspect. That is why meta-textually it is very dangerous for any independent superheroine to be with Spider-man. Silver Sable and Black Cat were introduced as a part of Peter's world. But Natasha wasn't. Making her a part of his world chips away a bit at her independence. Her sleeping with him casually is just out of character for her. Using her as the casual sex partner of a big male hero is going backward in regards to her treatment, not forward. And look, Peter and Natasha are on an international espionage extravaganza right now, and Natasha doesn't seem to be the one in charge at all.

  10. #70
    Senior Member Ziggy Stardust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hrist View Post
    The Nancy Rushman is an implant thing was a later development, so.

    I'm not very fond of that scene in Kevin Smith's Daredevil, but the point there was Matt's underlying misogyny, that he was willing to see evil even from people who offered him good. It wasn't that Natasha couldn't fight back (and later on in the arc she has him pinned in a panel) but that she was strong enough not to. That doesn't mean it wasn't upsetting to see a superheroine beaten up to prove a point like that, but Natasha was not Matt's love interest to make him seem more powerful. Back in the day, she challenged him every step of the way— but still, it made her seem like a weaker character, because on a fundamental level, the book was Daredevil, and Natasha was there to play love interest. They made enormous concessions to Natasha's plotline back in the 1970s with Daredevil, retitling the book, moving in Natasha's supporting cast, &c, stuff they would never do with Spider-man, but she was still sort of short changed.

    That is just what happens when established superheroines get written as love interests! That is exactly what Claremont was commenting on in that Nancy Rushman story, I suspect. That is why meta-textually it is very dangerous for any independent superheroine to be with Spider-man. Silver Sable and Black Cat were introduced as a part of Peter's world. But Natasha wasn't. Making her a part of his world chips away a bit at her independence. Her sleeping with him casually is just out of character for her. Using her as the casual sex partner of a big male hero is going backward in regards to her treatment, not forward. And look, Peter and Natasha are on an international espionage extravaganza right now, and Natasha doesn't seem to be the one in charge at all.
    This is a great post.

    First off, in Daredevil's book, yeah, they moved in her supporting cast and changed the title, but when the chips were down, she was often the first to fall or in need of Matt to rescue her. HATED that. I also hated that while she was shown as devoted to Matt, he was getting hit on or flirting with anyone else who came around. yeah, I know it was a different era, but...

    the only highlight was that SHE left HIM when she realized that her being reliant on him was costing her her edge, what had made her the world's greatest spy.

    And I am not implying that she be a Spidey sex toy. They live in a dangerous world, one in which the next mission, hell the next turn down a corridor could be their end. What I am seeing is more where two adults who like and respect each other can be intimate when they both need it.

    As to them being on a mission now in an espionage type setting and she is NOT in charge? Wish I could say I'm surprised, but I'm more angry, resigned and disgusted to read this. marvel has long gone out of their way to give her positions of power only to show her fail. Champions and her tenure as Avengers leader come to mind.

    And that's a crying shame.

    Natasha should be a strong, successful example of a female hero.

  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
    First off, in Daredevil's book, yeah, they moved in her supporting cast and changed the title, but when the chips were down, she was often the first to fall or in need of Matt to rescue her. HATED that. I also hated that while she was shown as devoted to Matt, he was getting hit on or flirting with anyone else who came around. yeah, I know it was a different era, but...

    the only highlight was that SHE left HIM when she realized that her being reliant on him was costing her her edge, what had made her the world's greatest spy.
    Yeah, her role in DD got progressively worse until Isabella came in and broke them up because that relationship was undermining Natasha's character. I don't think it was all bad, especially under Conway, I think Natasha in those issues is much more likable than jerky Matt, but it was generally Matt who saved the day, despite the overtures to equality.

    And I am not implying that she be a Spidey sex toy. They live in a dangerous world, one in which the next mission, hell the next turn down a corridor could be their end. What I am seeing is more where two adults who like and respect each other can be intimate when they both need it.
    I don't think you are implying she become a Spidey sex toy, you have definitely convinced me you are not, but that is something that happens often, even when it is not intended. Especially when the relationship is meant to be casual, it backfires often and they do not handle it right. At this point in the scenario though, I'm wondering why exactly Peter is going on all these espionage missions and bedding a hot Russian spy — missions plural seems to imply this is, if not a constant, is something that would recur, and that just seems like a bizarre premise for a Spider-man story. Peter has a richly developed civilian life, and a standard feel to his stories that he can't escape from too long. Does he just casually abandon it every so often to go on these international man of mystery tours? Or is Natasha kind of perpetually waiting, unseen, for Peter to return to her genre and her bed? Why would Peter be better for this sort of story, than say, Bucky?

  12. #72
    Senior Member Ziggy Stardust's Avatar
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    Hmmmm.... that is true that since Peter is more of a common man, his being in recurring missions with Natasha would seem forced and maybe even an excuse to show them in bed. Peter is not a killer. He's the exact opposite of who you'd want along on a black ops mission. Bucky is the better choice.

    I suppose the Nancy Rushman team-up stories left me feeling a little romantic nostalgia for what could have been between two of my favorite characters.

    DAMN LOGIC! ;)

  13. #73
    i need drink scouse mouse's Avatar
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  14. #74
    Senior Member Darthfury78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
    Hmmmm.... that is true that since Peter is more of a common man, his being in recurring missions with Natasha would seem forced and maybe even an excuse to show them in bed. Peter is not a killer. He's the exact opposite of who you'd want along on a black ops mission. Bucky is the better choice.

    I suppose the Nancy Rushman team-up stories left me feeling a little romantic nostalgia for what could have been between two of my favorite characters.

    DAMN LOGIC! ;)
    I am very surprised so much backlash against The Black Widow being an alternate crime fighting partner to The Black Cat for Spider-Man. Yet, Wolverine is in the Black Widow category as well. Yet, Wolverine and Spider-Man have an unlikely partnership. And a cosmic heroine like Ms. Marvel is an alternate crime fighting partner to The Black Cat. But I am willing to bet that those who strongly opposed the Black Widow's partnership with Spider-Man would have oppose Ms. Marvel as his crime fighting partner as well. Ironic since The Black Widow is currently a crime fight partner for Spider-Man in The Ends of the Earth storyline.

    And Silver Sable and The Black Widow are not the only crime fighting partners for Spider-Man. And regardless to her relationship with Bucky, let her have her fun as I don't feel that Spidey should be in a romantic relationship with anyone.

    This is not against you Ziggy Stardust. You are one of the few people who likes the idea of The Black Widow as an alternate crime fighting partner for Spider-Man. And The Black Widow was the first heroine to notice Spider-Man. In retrospect, she should have been Spider-Man's first crime fighting partner in the early 1970's. Stan Lee did help in creating the character. I am quite saddened that no other Spider-Writer in the past was ever interested in the idea of doing as much team-up stories between the Black Widow x Spider-Man as they have with Spider-Man x Black Cat or Spider-Man x Wolverine. Even Silver Sable wasn't used as much as The Black Cat in recent years either. It seems that no one likes the idea of a Super Spy or a paid Mercenary in a mutual friendship with Spider-Man. Those types of team-up combos makes the stories interesting to read about. If Ends of the Earth had featured The Black Cat and Venom as Spidey's team-up partners, I would not have bothered to read the story as I am tired of seeing The Black Cat as Spidey's only female crime fighting partner. When they decided to used The Black Widow x Silver Sable, that got my attention to buy the book. Something of which I rarely ever go out of my way to do.

  15. #75
    Veteran Member infernohara's Avatar
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    Sorry, Darthfury. I can give you Silver Sable, but I cannot see Peter with Natasha as a close associate or a lover. They live in two different worlds. I think Dan Slott got Natasha perfectly when she asked Sable if she would've rather gotten Captain America as help instead of Spiderman. Natasha kinda looks down on the character I'd bet. I'm curious to see if she gains a new perspective on Spidey after end of earth is over.

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