Female Takes on Jack Kirby

[Michael P]

But then they said she was just like Lincoln's mother, so that's OK.

[thespianphryne]

The thing I found most interesting and inflammatory about the article - and Boxer's comments in the milieu of that entire discussion are less than a flea's fart in the wind - is the notion that Kirby's art and his standing as an artist and an innovator somehow need to be defended. That whole article begins with one of Art Spiegelman's quotes:

I see him as a lesser God, to use his metaphors... [...] I suppose there's something about Kirby's sensibility, the optimism of it that just puts me off. [Groth laughs.] There's an unpleasant exuberance, like a teenager chattering so excitedly he keeps spritzing you with his saliva... The enthusiasm is kind of charming and endearing, but it doesn't strike deep in me....

Spiegelman, also not a big fan of superheroic imagery:

I respect the fact that this guy was able to produce such a prodigious amount of work and shape an industry ultimately around himself while pursuing his own muse; that's remarkable. But I don't *study* his work

You can't really bag on Spiegelman, but I think he too is responding from his own personal interests. And he is letting his personal sensibility get in the way of appreciating what Kirby did. He's just not able to appreciate the sheer, crazy physicality of Kirby's work. In fact, Boxer's comments seem to reflect Spiegelman's not verbatim - but in a way that makes you suspect a student ccribbed an essay form Wikipedia but used the thesaurus to substitute a few words. And then there's this whole notion of superhero comics being for juvenile, emotional retards (which I'm sorry to say may be characterised that way for a reason). But Kirby's work came is before and beyond that. So there are are a lot of critics and critical readers who apparently feel shy about talking about Kirby's work in a formal way.

The other thing that bugged me is how much a lot of folks - including other industry insiders and critics - seem to focus on his tights and fights stuff. Kirby was out there doing some mind blowing large format and collage stuff. His design work in the way it represents atmosphere and mood is insanely psychedelic.

[dupont2005]

I may be blind, but I can't imagine why anyone would be offended or critical of Kirby's art.

Now Lee's writing and dialogue were horribly sexist. I suppose one can say it was a reflection of the times they were written, as well as the attitude of their audience.

I read FF4 Essentials for the first time this past year, and just about every issue has some slight of Sue, or her acting out in some cliched way. On top of that, she often played the victim, the damsel in distress that had to be rescued.

I know there are fans of early FF4. It made me gag.

I don't see anything offensive with it, but he wouldn't make my list of favorite artists.

[worstblogever]

I may be blind, but I can't imagine why anyone would be offended or critical of Kirby's art.

Now Lee's writing and dialogue were horribly sexist. I suppose one can say it was a reflection of the times they were written, as well as the attitude of their audience.

I read FF4 Essentials for the first time this past year, and just about every issue has some slight of Sue, or her acting out in some cliched way. On top of that, she often played the victim, the damsel in distress that had to be rescued.

I know there are fans of early FF4. It made me gag.

Yeah, I found a lot of other comics that I was tempted to post, but it turned out the art was by Simon, Ditko, or Buscema, so I opted not to share it in this thread. Now, that doesn't make Stan Lee chauvinist, necessarily, of course. It means he wasn't afraid to write chauvinist characters. Which, there definitely were men who were at the time.

Sue was often the damsel in distress, but as I've seen it pointed out, she also was the reason the FF survived Dr. Doom during their first encounter.

[Mecegirl]

Well, I will challenge this:





Boxer's argument said nothing about sexualization. Which, would certainly be a flawed argument, considering the Female Furies. I mean, we've mentioned Granny Goodness and Mad Harriet but... Stompa?



I'm not feeling that art is meant to get me hot and bothered.

I think her comment on Silver Surfer was just supposed to be a joke.

As far as the sexualization is concerned...yep she said nothing about it. Absolutely nothing. I guess sexualization was only mentioned in this thread because it is a common complaint for superhero comic artists and because she made a penis joke.

[worstblogever]

The other thing that bugged me is how much a lot of folks - including other industry insiders and critics - seem to focus on his tights and fights stuff. Kirby was out there doing some mind blowing large format and collage stuff. His design work in the way it represents atmosphere and mood is insanely psychedelic.

Oh yeah. The Fourth World alone. Hell, Kirby's monster comics...



And then, there's his romance comics.

Kirby was WAY more than tights. He had ridiculous range.

[thespianphryne]

Okay, here's an example of the insanity I'm talking about - from his 2001: A Space Odyssey

[worstblogever]

Okay, there might be a phallus in that one. I'll concede that.

[Cavemold]

Okay, here's an example of the insanity I'm talking about - from his 2001: A Space Odyssey

Acid is one hell of a drug

[thespianphryne]

Okay, there might be a phallus in that one. I'll concede that.

Typical of you to see it from your massively, macho, male perspective. All I'm seeing is a series of giant vaginas. Which one will Bowman fall into?

[worstblogever]

Typical of you to see it from your massively, macho, male perspective. All I'm seeing is a series of giant vaginas. Which one will Bowman fall into?

All of them, that p****-obsessed chauvinist pig!

[Mecegirl]

Okay, here's an example of the insanity I'm talking about - from his 2001: A Space Odyssey

Okay, there might be a phallus in that one. I'll concede that.

Typical of you to see it from your massively, macho, male perspective. All I'm seeing is a series of giant vaginas. Which one will Bowman fall into?

All of them, that p****-obsessed chauvinist pig!

This conv right here just made the thread worth it....

[Gothos]

She said "some", not "all".



You are the OP.

I don't understand TP professing to speak for anyone but herself in any event.

Last I looked OP could also mean "original post." If it changed I didn't get the memo.

[Gothos]

This conv right here just made the thread worth it....

The spotlighting of more Kirby art has its compensations, all right.

[Paradox]

Gothos needs a secretary:

Last I looked OP could also mean "original post." If it changed I didn't get the memo.

You must not, because I've never seen it used as anything but "original poster".