Female Takes on Jack Kirby

[Gothos]

Over on the COMICS JOURNAL website, female cartoonist Sarah Boxer made this statement about Jack Kirby's work:

I’ve been watching the Kirby lovefest from the sidelines — not with envy, but with a kind of fascination. Why I can’t I dive in? Why does my son want to? (I see a superhero comics fan in the making and I am horrified but interested too.) There must be a reason. Hatfield’s chapter “How Kirby Changed the Superhero” speaks to the point. And it also seems to explain my physical revulsion for almost all of the Kirby superheroes except, perhaps, the Silver Surfer, a giant phallus on a surfboard.

That's her opinion and she's entitled to it. Rather than just reacting to Boxer's opinion, though, I'm curious:

How, if at all, would woman-type female fans here defend the work of Kirby from a feminine, or feminist, perspective?

[Rheged]

O_O

I'm appalled at the quote, though I haven't read the point she says someone else references. I'm also somewhat appalled at the phrase 'woman-type' female fans.

Have you got a link to the whole article / post that Sarah Boxer made?

[Aaron King]

Without seeing the full comment and also reading the article she's referring to, I can't really respond, but I feel like Kirby's drawings of females and the costumes he designed for female superheroes are some of the least sexualized in the genre. He was so focused on power and motion that sex just seemed drained out of things. Take Big Barda, for instance. She's occasionally drawn in skimpy clothes, but it never seemed like Kirby's purpose was to sexualize her. It always seemed like he was showing off her power and thickness.

I think it was Mark Millar who said that all of Kirby's early females looked like transsexuals or cross-dressers. I wouldn't quite go that far, but I think it hits at the same points.

[chariset]

Product of the times, maybe? Fair for its day? There's a real tendency in 60's comics to make women more like plot devices and less like people, and to use the word "female" instead of "girl" or "woman." ("Where's the female?" "A female is watching.." etc.)

[Desaad]

She seems to be getting at something more subliminal than just 'women aren't sexualized'. She's talking about ALL his super heroes.

Perhaps that manly, gruff, blocky, almost MONSTROUS appearance he gave everyone is what she's talking about? That the men don't come close to the delicate, almost feminine beauty you get from other artists of the decade? I mean you look at Kurt Swan's Superman and then you look at Jack Kirby's Superman, and they are worlds apart. Kirby's characters are largely UGLY, and ugly in a...well, I don't want to say realistic, because that isn't correct, but it sort of evokes a sense of realism, because real people aren't all Michelangelo's David.

[Desaad]

Just found the article, and I seem to be more on then off, but not quite there...

"I like my superheroes smooth. Many of Kirby’s superheroes (and some of his anti-heroes) are encrusted, scaly, ripply. This encrustation strikes me as related to Christian iconography, which I also know nothing about. (See the attached photo of a work by Arthur Lopez at the Harwood Museum of Art in Taos, titled El Savador del Mundo.) Every layer is meaningful, not merely ornamental. And the layers seem designed to keep people like me out, people who don’t understand what the encrustation is all about. It is literally repulsive."

"[My favorite superhero is Batman].The DC superheroes are smooth, streamlined, modernists in tightfitting pajama costumes. They are not so much clothed as depicted “though a haze of color,” Hatfield writes. The costumes, Hatfield continues, quoting Michael Chabon, are meant to show off “the naked human form, unfettered, perfect, and free.” P. 112"

She goes on to say that she admires Kirby's energy, but that the aesthetic of his work is more tailored to others (and, perhaps, men) who prefer the energy and the design and the eccentricity and the complexity to the simple, the stark, the graceful.

http://www.tcj.com/jack-kirby-hand-o...dtable-part-3/

[chariset]

She goes on to say that she admires Kirby's energy, but that the aesthetic of his work is more tailored to others (and, perhaps, men) who prefer the energy and the design and the eccentricity and the complexity to the simple, the stark, the graceful.

That's a lot of words to say "He's okay but not my favorite."

[kelly_warrior_princess]

How, if at all, would woman-type female fans here defend the work of Kirby from a feminine, or feminist, perspective?

Well not being a feminist i have no feminist opinion. Then again having a feminist opinion is kind of like having a feminist flavoured cookie: WTF does feminism have to do with cookie flavours.

An like wise, though i conceed to indeed being a "woman-type female fan," what does that have to do with my opinion on the works of a particular artist? The only opinion i have that matters is one based on objective recognition of talent & the subjective appeal of artistic merit. So, no i'm not a fan & my lack of being a fan has nothing to do with my genital configuration.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Over on the COMICS JOURNAL website, female cartoonist Sarah Boxer made this statement about Jack Kirby's work:



That's her opinion and she's entitled to it. Rather than just reacting to Boxer's opinion, though, I'm curious:

How, if at all, would woman-type female fans here defend the work of Kirby from a feminine, or feminist, perspective?

If one can't glean Miranda July-esque insouciance from "Mad Harriet", then you're a pretty constrictive feminist.

[Frank]

I'm happy she wasn't my mother so she could brainwash my brain. Hopefully that kid has a father.

But if she read a comic or two, she would see that her son may learn a thing or two about heroism and learn to love heroism and that heroism as a whole is cool and that you should stand up for the little guy. These are things have been passed to me by reading super-hero comics and that will stay with me forever.

[Rasputin9977]

Why is she horrified to see a super hero fan on the making?

[passer-by]

How, if at all, would woman-type female fans here defend the work of Kirby from a feminine, or feminist, perspective?

Why should it be defended from such a perspective?

That's a lot of words to say "He's okay but not my favorite."

Exactly.

But if she read a comic or two, she would see that her son may learn a thing or two about heroism and learn to love heroism and that heroism as a whole is cool.

Not of late, I'm afraid, as far as Marvel comics are concerned.

[Talisman]

If one can't glean Miranda July-esque insouciance from "Mad Harriet", then you're a pretty constrictive feminist.

Did you get a Bette Davis vibe from Granny Goodness, too?

[Gothos]

O_O

I'm appalled at the quote, though I haven't read the point she says someone else references. I'm also somewhat appalled at the phrase 'woman-type' female fans.

Have you got a link to the whole article / post that Sarah Boxer made?

It was just a joke, man (or woman).

[Gothos]

Just found the article, and I seem to be more on then off, but not quite there...

"I like my superheroes smooth. Many of Kirby’s superheroes (and some of his anti-heroes) are encrusted, scaly, ripply. This encrustation strikes me as related to Christian iconography, which I also know nothing about. (See the attached photo of a work by Arthur Lopez at the Harwood Museum of Art in Taos, titled El Savador del Mundo.) Every layer is meaningful, not merely ornamental. And the layers seem designed to keep people like me out, people who don’t understand what the encrustation is all about. It is literally repulsive."

"[My favorite superhero is Batman].The DC superheroes are smooth, streamlined, modernists in tightfitting pajama costumes. They are not so much clothed as depicted “though a haze of color,” Hatfield writes. The costumes, Hatfield continues, quoting Michael Chabon, are meant to show off “the naked human form, unfettered, perfect, and free.” P. 112"

She goes on to say that she admires Kirby's energy, but that the aesthetic of his work is more tailored to others (and, perhaps, men) who prefer the energy and the design and the eccentricity and the complexity to the simple, the stark, the graceful.

http://www.tcj.com/jack-kirby-hand-o...dtable-part-3/

Thanks for finding the link and printing the extra stuff.

I didn't want to get into a debate about what Boxer said because it's just a statement of taste, not an assault on other people's rights to like superheroes. I know that many female fans like Trina Robbins and Heidi McDonald like Kirby, but I've never heard anyone argue in Kirby's favor from a feminine perspective. Maybe it's not possible to make such an argument except in terms of taste, I don't know.