Female Takes on Jack Kirby

[Gothos]

Over on the COMICS JOURNAL website, female cartoonist Sarah Boxer made this statement about Jack Kirby's work:

I’ve been watching the Kirby lovefest from the sidelines — not with envy, but with a kind of fascination. Why I can’t I dive in? Why does my son want to? (I see a superhero comics fan in the making and I am horrified but interested too.) There must be a reason. Hatfield’s chapter “How Kirby Changed the Superhero” speaks to the point. And it also seems to explain my physical revulsion for almost all of the Kirby superheroes except, perhaps, the Silver Surfer, a giant phallus on a surfboard.

That's her opinion and she's entitled to it. Rather than just reacting to Boxer's opinion, though, I'm curious:

How, if at all, would woman-type female fans here defend the work of Kirby from a feminine, or feminist, perspective?

[Rheged]

O_O

I'm appalled at the quote, though I haven't read the point she says someone else references. I'm also somewhat appalled at the phrase 'woman-type' female fans.

Have you got a link to the whole article / post that Sarah Boxer made?

[Aaron King]

Without seeing the full comment and also reading the article she's referring to, I can't really respond, but I feel like Kirby's drawings of females and the costumes he designed for female superheroes are some of the least sexualized in the genre. He was so focused on power and motion that sex just seemed drained out of things. Take Big Barda, for instance. She's occasionally drawn in skimpy clothes, but it never seemed like Kirby's purpose was to sexualize her. It always seemed like he was showing off her power and thickness.

I think it was Mark Millar who said that all of Kirby's early females looked like transsexuals or cross-dressers. I wouldn't quite go that far, but I think it hits at the same points.

[chariset]

Product of the times, maybe? Fair for its day? There's a real tendency in 60's comics to make women more like plot devices and less like people, and to use the word "female" instead of "girl" or "woman." ("Where's the female?" "A female is watching.." etc.)

[Desaad]

She seems to be getting at something more subliminal than just 'women aren't sexualized'. She's talking about ALL his super heroes.

Perhaps that manly, gruff, blocky, almost MONSTROUS appearance he gave everyone is what she's talking about? That the men don't come close to the delicate, almost feminine beauty you get from other artists of the decade? I mean you look at Kurt Swan's Superman and then you look at Jack Kirby's Superman, and they are worlds apart. Kirby's characters are largely UGLY, and ugly in a...well, I don't want to say realistic, because that isn't correct, but it sort of evokes a sense of realism, because real people aren't all Michelangelo's David.

[Desaad]

Just found the article, and I seem to be more on then off, but not quite there...

"I like my superheroes smooth. Many of Kirby’s superheroes (and some of his anti-heroes) are encrusted, scaly, ripply. This encrustation strikes me as related to Christian iconography, which I also know nothing about. (See the attached photo of a work by Arthur Lopez at the Harwood Museum of Art in Taos, titled El Savador del Mundo.) Every layer is meaningful, not merely ornamental. And the layers seem designed to keep people like me out, people who don’t understand what the encrustation is all about. It is literally repulsive."

"[My favorite superhero is Batman].The DC superheroes are smooth, streamlined, modernists in tightfitting pajama costumes. They are not so much clothed as depicted “though a haze of color,” Hatfield writes. The costumes, Hatfield continues, quoting Michael Chabon, are meant to show off “the naked human form, unfettered, perfect, and free.” P. 112"

She goes on to say that she admires Kirby's energy, but that the aesthetic of his work is more tailored to others (and, perhaps, men) who prefer the energy and the design and the eccentricity and the complexity to the simple, the stark, the graceful.

http://www.tcj.com/jack-kirby-hand-o...dtable-part-3/

[dupersuper]

Kurt Swan's Superman

That'd be Curt Swan.

Why is she horrified to see a super hero fan on the making?

Especially since she says she likes them...?

Though Marvel is more rebellious then DC that's a given.

For people stuck in the 60s...

[The Black Guardian]

Without seeing the full comment and also reading the article she's referring to, I can't really respond, but I feel like Kirby's drawings of females and the costumes he designed for female superheroes are some of the least sexualized in the genre. He was so focused on power and motion that sex just seemed drained out of things. Take Big Barda, for instance. She's occasionally drawn in skimpy clothes, but it never seemed like Kirby's purpose was to sexualize her. It always seemed like he was showing off her power and thickness.

I think it was Mark Millar who said that all of Kirby's early females looked like transsexuals or cross-dressers. I wouldn't quite go that far, but I think it hits at the same points.

I find his women to be among the most alluring. Big Barda chief among them. He even based her appearance on sex symbol Lainie Kazan.

[Iangould]

So far we have A woman's opinion on Jack Kirby.

How about the male posters stop speculating about what this signifies about women in general and see what some of the female CBR posters think?

[thespianphryne]

So far we have A woman's opinion on Jack Kirby.

How about the male posters stop speculating about what this signifies about women in general and see what some of the female CBR posters think?

Women don't have opinions: we're too busy being mean and irrational to guys, and creating fantasy wedding boards on Pinterest.

[Gothos]

O_O

I'm appalled at the quote, though I haven't read the point she says someone else references. I'm also somewhat appalled at the phrase 'woman-type' female fans.

Have you got a link to the whole article / post that Sarah Boxer made?

It was just a joke, man (or woman).

[custodes]

She is just trying to make a name for herself by saying something controversial about the comic great Jack Kirby. I do not believe her point that she is not jealous. I have purposely not used her name as to not give her the publicity she craves in this obvious grasp for her fanbase growth and name/recognition.

[Donald M.]

She is just trying to make a name for herself by saying something controversial about the comic great Jack Kirby.

Yeah totally. Or she just genuinely doesn't like his stuff. Because that is possible, please tell me you realize this.

[Shawn Hopkins]

I would like to hear more female opinions on the matter, also. I certainly don't think this one person's opinion is enough to make any kind of judgment on gender differences in aesthetic taste. Drawing the idea from it, for example, that boys like lumpy, scaly, ugly things and girls like smooth, pretty things is not a particularly useful revelation. That seems like a well-worn gender stereotype to me, and not an always accurate one in my experience.

[kelly_warrior_princess]

How, if at all, would woman-type female fans here defend the work of Kirby from a feminine, or feminist, perspective?

Well not being a feminist i have no feminist opinion. Then again having a feminist opinion is kind of like having a feminist flavoured cookie: WTF does feminism have to do with cookie flavours.

An like wise, though i conceed to indeed being a "woman-type female fan," what does that have to do with my opinion on the works of a particular artist? The only opinion i have that matters is one based on objective recognition of talent & the subjective appeal of artistic merit. So, no i'm not a fan & my lack of being a fan has nothing to do with my genital configuration.