Feels like the New 52 is throwing out the baby with the bathwater so far...

[shark]

Which are up compared to the trend they were on before the relaunch.

Of course they are. Hype + reboot + relaunch = sales spike. That's why I'm asking if DC will reset the universe again once sales start sinking.

[CagedLeo730]

Of course they are. Hype + reboot + relaunch = sales spike. That's why I'm asking if DC will reset the universe again once sales start sinking.

It depends on who's definition of "sinking". Comics sales has it's spikes and then a downturn until the next spike. Before the relaunch the spikes were getting smaller and smaller. The second wave will cause a spike. Before Watchmen will cause a spike, Multiversity will cause a spike. Trinity War will cause a spike. The size of the spikes are unknown right now.

Didio said they have a 5 year plan for right now, so no reset until then. Unless Didio and the top brass are fired. Then again, plans change all the time.

[glennsim]

For instance, Hal & Ollie aren't nearly as interesting to me without them both going through the Hard-Travelling Heroes era. That backstory is crucial to them in my mind. Now, I'm certainly NOT saying the O'Neil & Adams stories must have happened exactly like they did in those original comics, because they are very, very dated now and don't hold up at all. That said, I think it's important for both of those characters to have wandered around America trying to fix America's social problems instead of punching yet another super-villain in the nose. Without those events in their history, they're just cocky &#$@ without much depth.

Which is funny to me, because when was the last time this actually was mentioned in the comics? You have probably years of Green Lantern and Green Arrow comics where the fact that they did that in the past had absolutely nothing to do with the story being told now. The only place it had any bearing on the story was in your head.

[davidn15]

Huh? Of course I can re-read any old story I want. What does that have to do with what I'm saying?

I'm concerned that the new DCU history threw out too much of its backstory so that new stories won't be able to use them to give the characters more depth. For instance, Hal & Ollie aren't nearly as interesting to me without them both going through the Hard-Travelling Heroes era. That backstory is crucial to them in my mind. Now, I'm certainly NOT saying the O'Neil & Adams stories must have happened exactly like they did in those original comics, because they are very, very dated now and don't hold up at all. That said, I think it's important for both of those characters to have wandered around America trying to fix America's social problems instead of punching yet another super-villain in the nose. Without those events in their history, they're just cocky &#$@ without much depth.

I understand that having their heroes at a younger, less mature and seasoned stage of their careers can open up new stories for them, but losing key stuff like this feels pointless to me. Johns has said they don't want to re-tell old stories, so why bother ditching such important benchmarks like this?

Those were some great stories, but they have no relevance to what's been going on in Green Lantern for years. I don't need to know these characters backstories. DC will tell us what they will tell us when they want to. Unless it's relevant to the here and now it doesn't matter. Someone a few weeks back posted a great quote from Morrison about how adults overcomplicate things that children so easily understand. This is the same deal. Adults making things way more complicated than they need to be. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I read comics for stories, not to make sense of past continuity. Kids back in the day read comics for those stories. How many of them cared about every little detail that happened before they started reading? But now that we're all grown up we have to? Not me.

[Sacred Knight]

Of course they are. Hype + reboot + relaunch = sales spike. That's why I'm asking if DC will reset the universe again once sales start sinking.

Which is a rather silly question because while DC has rebooted twice in their 70+ year history, that does not equate to rebooting every time sales drop.

[Zeeguy91]

I think that...we don't really know what's still in continuity and what's not. I see a lot of people here citing that they took the 80s New Teen Titans out of continuity, yet in Red Hood and the Outlaws #1, they directly mention Starfire and Nightwing's previous relationship. How could that still have happened if NTT didn't happen?

IMO, we need to just wait and see. A lot of people were saying that they doubted whether Blackest Night was still in continuity, yet then in GL #8, it was directly referenced. So, reiterating, I think we can pretend that a lot of stuff in still in continuity until DC says otherwise.

[Sacred Knight]

This is, in my opinion, what they need to devote their #0 issues to in September. Answer the heavy-hitter questions conclusively and appropriately. I don't care if they've changed their minds 10 times over the course of this past year on some things, just make a final decision on the big ones and get the answers out there on page soon. The very design of the #0 issues affords this opportunity perfectly and for me I like to imagine that's the entire purpose.

[CagedLeo730]

I think that...we don't really know what's still in continuity and what's not. I see a lot of people here citing that they took the 80s New Teen Titans out of continuity, yet in Red Hood and the Outlaws #1, they directly mention Starfire and Nightwing's previous relationship. How could that still have happened if NTT didn't happen?

IMO, we need to just wait and see. A lot of people were saying that they doubted whether Blackest Night was still in continuity, yet then in GL #8, it was directly referenced. So, reiterating, I think we can pretend that a lot of stuff in still in continuity until DC says otherwise.

With the concepts of alternate timelines and dimensions, I don't know why some comic fans can't accept that 2 outcomes can be similar without going through the same paths. Nightwing can still have met Starfire without NTT happening. She still came to Earth after escaping slavery so them meeting isn't impossible. As for Blackest Night, the absence of some dead heroes doesn't negate Black Hand and Nekron.

[CagedLeo730]

This is, in my opinion, what they need to devote their #0 issues to in September. Answer the heavy-hitter questions conclusively and appropriately. I don't care if they've changed their minds 10 times over the course of this past year on some things, just make a final decision on the big ones and get the answers out there on page soon. The very design of the #0 issues affords this opportunity perfectly and for me I like to imagine that's the entire purpose.

They don't need to answer questions that won't have any reprecussions in the upcoming 2nd year. It's wasting panels and pages to please the continuity-obsessed.

[Sacred Knight]

Couldn't disagree more. Laying a concise foundation is exactly what the the post-Crisis universe lacked, and why ultimately it just created new continuity issues altogether or made old ones even worse. Why make that same mistake twice? I can't fathom how it could be considered wasting pages to clear up critical questions that are still unknown or muddled at best in this 5 year window. The clearer the universe, the more engaging the immersion for the reader, and that goes for not only the second year but well beyond. Well worth a month's devotion of time, in my opinion.

[andersonh1]

I've never really been a big stickler for continuity. I actually like that DC refreshes its history every decade or so to ditch the stuff that isn't working and try something different. In fact, I think some of the worst DC stories are the ones that desperately try to work around some old piece of continuity instead of just ignoring it and telling the story they actually want to tell.

That said, one of the coolest things for me about DC & Marvel is that they are built upon literally hundreds of older stories, all adding a new piece to a living breathing fictional history that keeps growing and evolving. I understand that it can become cumbersome at times, but as long as writers and editors focus on telling good stories instead of explaining away continuity, it can be a beautiful thing.

I had high hopes for the New 52 revamp, which I assumed was going to streamline DC's sprawling history down to its broad strokes so creators could be more free to tell new stories and new readers could jump on-board without having to worry about missing anything.

Unfortunately, it seems to me that this streamlining has thrown out practically everything, with the notable exception of Green Lantern & Batman, whose histories look pretty much unchanged.

But...why?

Was it really necessary to throw out so much? It seems like a waste of material that could make new stories better. The shared history of all these fictional characters gave them much needed depth that I just don't feel any more.

I don't know, maybe I'm part of the problem and I should just let things be so new readers can enjoy the new stuff, but I have a hard time swallowing this when Marvel has been pretty successfully keeping their characters accessible without dumping 90% of their 50+ year long history. Most of the time, they just keep what works and ignore what doesn't. Why could that work at DC?

Of course, if I was really digging the new comics, I probably wouldn't be complaining, but I've been pretty underwhelmed by most of them so far. There are a few bright spots, like Wonder Woman, sure, but nothing else has really grabbed me. Even Action Comics, which I had such high hopes for, has been wildly inconsistent.

Exactly how I feel, 100%. The depth of the shared universe, built over time, is gone. I don't know these characters any more.

[Fate's Faith]

^That's just another problem. For me the characters aren't just a "name and power set". And I wasn't around for the last reboot, but looking back, this is quite different given the history of post-crisis was incredibly more important/dense than the pre-crisis universe.

Well, I'm sure when someone loses something important to them it does seem to be a bigger problem than someone else losing out. While I wasn't a huge fan of the Flash, I felt his passing but that didn't stop me from accepting Wally in his place. It felt right. When the Huntress was basically disintergrated, I got a different character that I found even more interesting. I'm a little hopeful that Supergirl today will capture the Supergirl who died saving her cousin. Because that character died and has stayed dead since Crisis in my opinion. I can go on so its not like I don't understand how it feels to losing favorite characters. Just pointing out that doesn't mean you can't enjoy what follows because at times it can surpass the past.

I understand that having their heroes at a younger, less mature and seasoned stage of their careers can open up new stories for them, but losing key stuff like this feels pointless to me. Johns has said they don't want to re-tell old stories, so why bother ditching such important benchmarks like this?

That seems to suggest it will be an important story today. Is it? Was it last year? Most likely that story will not be retold because that relationship doesn't currently exist. The establishment of that relationship actually predates when I started reading comics. If its hard for me to see it necessary to continue storytelling today, imagine how important it is to someone just picking up titles on a regular basis today.

Exactly how I feel, 100%. The depth of the shared universe, built over time, is gone. I don't know these characters any more.

I would guess the question is are you interested in knowing these strangers. I personally don't see depth in a shared world that had to retcon twice since the last major reboot. Perhaps you are approaching it as I do but while I see one continuous storyline about these characters that undergo reboots in their history from their very start, you have specific starting point and now an ending point in how that had worked for you? I guess what I'm wondering if you don't know these characters anymore did that mean you didn't know Wonder Woman any more when Infinite Crisis said she was actually present during the formation of the first Justice League since almost 20 years had passed with her not being there in its formation.

[glennsim]

Couldn't disagree more. Laying a concise foundation is exactly what the the post-Crisis universe lacked, and why ultimately it just created new continuity issues altogether or made old ones even worse. Why make that same mistake twice? I can't fathom how it could be considered wasting pages to clear up critical questions that are still unknown or muddled at best in this 5 year window. The clearer the universe, the more engaging the immersion for the reader, and that goes for not only the second year but well beyond. Well worth a month's devotion of time, in my opinion.

I think the issue is that there is a difference between something being contradictory and something being unknown. Or how important a past event is to the present of a characters. Knowing how Donna Troy got her powers given that Wonder Woman wasn't her sister any more was sorta important to establish for ongoing Donna Troy stories (although it didn't need to be repeatedly re-discovered). Whereas knowing whether Nightwing was in a group called the Teen Titans or not is arguably not important - Nightwing is the former Robin who got older and changed his name to Nightwing. That's the only thing his current stories are based on.

I think the foundation of the current universe, as long as it's not contradictory, is established every month in the current books. If a writer establishes something about the past of a character, then that's the past of the character, and the only problem is if another writer contradicts that (for no good reason).

[Mr. Holmes]

Yeah exactly. The problem with COIE is that a lot of the new establishing of history/continuity was contradictory. At least with unknown, I can fill in the blanks with my own imagination.

[Jim Thompson]

Laying a concise foundation is exactly what the the post-Crisis universe lacked...

Artists typically hate any form of restriction. That may have had something to do with what happened after Crisis On Infinite Earths.