Feels like the New 52 is throwing out the baby with the bathwater so far...

[shark]

Honestly, I'm okay with them restarting every 15+ years; that is about the length most successful Japanese comics run. The idea that someone can keep telling a story for years upon years with countless different writers without the series turning into a trainwreck is silly.

Is not the same thing. Manga are different stories set in different universes. DC - and Marvel - work with characters that share a universe.

That's not even close to what my statement said. As for what is "good" is not up to me to determine. I could say only 100,000 sales for all titles is "good" or I could say an average of 30k in sales for the whole line is "good". It's up to DC and Time Warner to determine what's "good" for them.
Marvel seems to be "happy" with their sales level and none of their non-event titles are any where near 100k.

I wasn't being serious.

Considering they are cancelling anything that goes below 30,000/20,000...

Sure, but we aren't talking about Marvel.

The Neilsen report is an accurate evaluation of how things stood at the time they did it, which was like the very first week or two of the relaunch. Which just isn't a good measure of the overall results.

And neither is an internet poll. You can't have it both ways.

[toddx77]

Let me share my personal experience. For a while I wanted to get into comics, being a big cartoon, anime and manga fan. But was too intimidated by the 'what came before' I didn't want to pick up a book and then get confused or wondered what else needed to be known to enjoy that book. I picked up some X-men, and read a copy of Titans Annual but was confused. Fast forward to last September when DC announced their reboot. Finally I can pick up a title and immediately be able to follow it without having to wonder 'what else should I know' or What's happening here' And from that I jumped in full force to the DC bandwagon.

However, the lingering continuity is probably why I don't enjoy Green Lantern

I was in the same boat back in 2007. I was really into anime and manga so I wanted to start reading American comics. I figured why not since I grew up with the cartoons, hated how I only got to see the characters every few years in a movie and knew how comics went into more detail so I wanted to give it a shot. Like you I was afraid of all I missed but what I did was just buy the current issue of some comics and after I liked them I went back and bought all the back issues the comic shop had in order. With new series I started doing the samething. So for example when I bought Ultimate Spider-man the comic shop had the current issues plus like 5 of the vurrent back issues before the next issue being a few months old. The guy at the comic book store answered any questions I had and I started buying graphic novels to get caught up too. It required a little bit of work but I found it rather enjoyable to track down trades and read older issues. With some series like Ultimate books, Amazing Spider-Man, Teen Titans,and New Avengers I read the current issues and the older trades at the same time and with others such as Astonishing X-Men and Green Lantern I caught up with the trades before reading the monthly issues.

That may seem like extra work but it wasn't and was not a problem for me. As a new reader I was able to get a good grasp of what was going on in the Marvel and DC universes from trades and wikipedia. It was no where near as off putting as I thought it would be or others made it. Honestly the biggest problem was trying to figure out what trades to get. With the exception of the ultimate trades Marvel and DC really need to get a proper numbering system in order. I would go to borders and would not know what trade came first. I looked inside some to see which issues it had but then you had stuff like uncanny x-men started with vol 1 for chuck austins run than when claramont took over in 2004 it went back to 1 again. Or you have grant morrisons new x-men starting with vol 1 then the other new x-men starting with vol 1 but doesnt start with issue 1 because originally it was new mutants. Then there is the order such as do you read all of green lantern before corps? Read uncanny x-men before astonishing? Things like that I asked around the comic shop about and went online but I think that is the biggest problem for new readers. Look at graphic novels and have no idea where to start but lets hope with the new 52 trades DC keeps the numbers steady.

[davidn15]

This should change. Each issue should be an episode complete in itself. Failing to make them so is a decline of editorial and artistic standards. But it would require a change in editorial philosophies.

Can't say I agree with this. As much as I like older comics, I gotta say I love having my stories more drawn out and elaborate. With my background in manga, the complaints of decompression have just never made much sense to me.

[SteveGus]

Unless your office has some reason to specifically cater to those who have an interest in sci-fi/fantasy, or at least a high percentage of people who are avid readers or anything, then that's not really the target market anyway.

Nobody ever suggested that super-hero comic books were ever going to be mainstream.

They were more mainstream once: to the point of being in doctors' offices and barbershops. Back then, there was a relatively complete episode in every book, as well as some kind of background story to whet the reader for what came next in the long term plot. This has been lost, and as such a random issue of most comic books will not entertain many people.

[glennsim]

And neither is an internet poll. You can't have it both ways.

Not the poll, but the comments themselves, which are qualitative. When you read them, you hear from people how important the relaunch was to their giving the new52 a try. And that thread has continued, rather than being just a month's measurement.

Whereas the Neilsen report is basically quantitative - how many people answered which answer in multiple choice questions given over a very limited amount of time.. Interesting and useful, but not a lot of information on its own - how things change over time with the next poll will be more telling.

[TheFinisher4Ever]

They were more mainstream once: to the point of being in doctors' offices and barbershops. Back then, there was a relatively complete episode in every book, as well as some kind of background story to whet the reader for what came next in the long term plot. This has been lost, and as such a random issue of most comic books will not entertain many people.

A comic doesn't have to be completely episodic if it had a recap page with small character bios. It takes 1 page and it makes almost any issue a potential starting point. DC really needs to start doing recap pages. It's like starting a tv show in the middle of a season. All you really need to enjoy the episode is a "Previously on ....." segment. Now it won't be as enjoyable as starting at the beginning and you may miss some things, but that little segment makes it so much more enjoyable.

[glennsim]

They were more mainstream once: to the point of being in doctors' offices and barbershops. Back then, there was a relatively complete episode in every book, as well as some kind of background story to whet the reader for what came next in the long term plot. This has been lost, and as such a random issue of most comic books will not entertain many people.

I think you've got the cause and effect backwards. Comics stopped being mainstream, and became a hobby just for a select group of people. At that point, it made more sense to go with storylines that were more involved and required each issue. Going back to self-contained stories isn't going make the average person want to read them, in this age of TV and internet. Print is barely surviving as it stands.

And I doubt many adults in those doctors' offices and barbershops back in the day were reading them either, just the kids.

[glennsim]

A comic doesn't have to be completely episodic if it had a recap page with small character bios. It takes 1 page and it makes almost any issue a potential starting point. DC really needs to start doing recap pages. It's like starting a tv show in the middle of a season. All you really need to enjoy the episode is a "Previously on ....." segment. Now it won't be as enjoyable as starting at the beginning and you may miss some things, but that little segment makes it so much more enjoyable.

I don't disagree with this. DC seems obsessed with the notion that they can catch people up within the story, which to me is incorrect and simply not really even being attempted.

[nosocialize100]

Actually, they kept the stuff that was selling best as consistent as they could, and they changed the stuff that wasn't selling as well. Pretty normal business practice.

You bring up an interesting point. This is a business, this isn't about writing the best stories. Probably why this person posted the thread in the first place.

[SteveGus]

I think you've got the cause and effect backwards. Comics stopped being mainstream, and became a hobby just for a select group of people. At that point, it made more sense to go with storylines that were more involved and required each issue. Going back to self-contained stories isn't going make the average person want to read them, in this age of TV and internet. Print is barely surviving as it stands.

And I doubt many adults in those doctors' offices and barbershops back in the day were reading them either, just the kids.

Adults would read them from time to time. Those Silver Age comics were in one sense the last hurrah of pulp literature; the other thing you could count on finding in the barbershop were "men's adventure" sweat mags like Argosy and Man's Life, which were in one sense the last of the true pulps.

A comic doesn't have to be completely episodic if it had a recap page with small character bios. It takes 1 page and it makes almost any issue a potential starting point. DC really needs to start doing recap pages. It's like starting a tv show in the middle of a season. All you really need to enjoy the episode is a "Previously on ....." segment. Now it won't be as enjoyable as starting at the beginning and you may miss some things, but that little segment makes it so much more enjoyable.

This would help a great deal. I've been reading more Marvel recently -- at least for the moment, Marvel seems less dark and serious than DC -- and it does seem that the Marvel books do a better job at telling self-contained episodes than DC books are doing. Recap pages seem usual over there also.

[Hulk_Is]

I think streamlining the universe would have been a great idea, and Marvel could use it, too. But DC didn't streamline several of their major characters. They erased them and replaced them with totally different ones. I don't really get the idea there. They already had a working character, so it seems like more work to scrap it and make something brand new.

Anyway, starting stuff over for new readers is silly. They'd have to do it like every 3 years since new readers are always coming. They should just write better comics.

I demand to know what the hell the bolded portion means.

[Fate's Faith]

That said, I do think they kind of shot themselves in the foot with the "five years ago" starting point.

That's been the very thing I think could trip them up. There have been some hiccups and at times you can tell the 'past' is in a state of flux because it seems to be avoided at all costs. I mean, look at Hawkman. They seem to purposedly be avoiding addressing anything before issue #1 and it felt to me like because even they didn't know yet. Much cleaner to make 'five years ago' be today for all titles but then there's a number of characters I like today that I might not see for years. So, good call on their part to me but still some dangers there.

I don't treat it as a reboot, I treat it as an event that altered reality. In my personal continuity, everything still happened. But now that reality has been altered, the characters (along with being deaged) remember some bits of the past & not others. This is how I reconcile things, and what keeps me from worrying about parts of continuity being in or out.

I'm surprised most if not all previous readers don't treat it exactly that way. This is comics after all. I still exist on the idea these are the same characters I've always known since childhood who have gone through several Crisis and Zero Hours and now Flashpoint. So all continuity is *in* for me even the parts I don't care for but what's current is what I'm buying today. But my first exposure still exists and back issues allow you to revisit the past.

[Master X]

^I'd love to treat it this way, but all my fave characters are gone or just completely unrecognisable. They may as well not even be the same character.

As for the Nielson report. It's about as accurate as a brick in the face is fun.

[Fate's Faith]

^I'd love to treat it this way, but all my fave characters are gone or just completely unrecognisable. They may as well not even be the same character.

And five years from now, that may change. Five years later, it may essentially be the same character but you've become accustomed to the previous. If I just couldn't get past what happened in 1987 I still wouldn't have that same universe today. That's not to say there didn't come a point when I just didn't want to read about these characters anymore but it wasn't due to one of the reboots. Even though I haven't read in years there are very few characters I don't recognize. The one that sticks out the most to me is Green Arrow. Those who are gone I would compare to the Huntress. Loved the character pre-Crisis then she's killed and later we get a new version which actually became my favorite version. Now, another new one so I'm more excited to see if lightning strikes twice than being upset one my favorites didn't make the cut. She's still there, just not in current books.

[Master X]

^That's just another problem. For me the characters aren't just a "name and power set". And I wasn't around for the last reboot, but looking back, this is quite different given the history of post-crisis was incredibly more important/dense than the pre-crisis universe.