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  1. #181
    Senior Member PennyDreadful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allstarmatches View Post
    With the reboot, all that is gone. Proof is in the pudding - pre-Flashpoint the book was mostly terrible. Post-Flashpoint, with the same lead character and same artist, it's one of the best-reviewed books in the line. They're doing something right, even if the book isn't personally to your taste.
    The book went downhill when Bart Allen was shoehorned into being the Flash. Before that, the Flash book was very good. Johns just has no feel for Barry Allen.

    As for the new book, it has lovely art and stylistic innovation. But I find that it just lacks heart and camaraderie. And Didio's decision to make the Rogues metahumans simply takes away what made them unique. IMO, they're more badass without superpowers.

    The same lack of heart is true of the reboot in general. The characters across the DCNu don't have charm and personality. They're simply pieces on a chessboard. That's what the DCU lost with the reboot. It's just so joyless, and I found nothing in the new universe that compensates for the loss of the old. If other people like it, fine. I just find that the reboot offers nothing to look forward to.

    As for the current editors at DC, actions sometimes speak louder than words.

  2. #182
    Veteran Member Fate's Faith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vampiric_cannibal View Post
    Honestly? Legacies are easier to sum up if they are the second and third. Batman's origin requires mentioning that he decided to take on the Bat as his symbol. The first Batgirl requires mention of why she thought Batman would need a teenage girl ally. Subdequent legacies don't have to explain why their concept exists, just establish the character. It is assumed that the idea has already been bought into, and if you're buying a superhero comic then your suspension of disbelief is pretty high anyway.
    That to me is something they did with Nightwing in his first issue. "Hey readers, I just decided to quit being Batman so lets jump right into this story and ignore that." The only way to realistically and organically include a second or third Batgirl in Barbara's place is to just make her the first Batgirl. I think that's why Barbara won. This was going to be a story about Batgirl which out baggage. You will notice there's no Oracle here either. This is why I think Nightwing mentioning he was formally Batman was a mistake. We aren't telling that story. The story technically occurs in another continuity. In this continuity, he wasn't even a Teen Titan. So the reasoning for the information had nothing to do with where we are now. Just like Barbara being Batgirl has nothing to do with Cass or Steph.

    Quote Originally Posted by PennyDreadful View Post
    As for the new book, it has lovely art and stylistic innovation. But I find that it just lacks heart and camaraderie. And Didio's decision to make the Rogues metahumans simply takes away what made them unique. IMO, they're more badass without superpowers.
    This just opens you up to the lack of information to make that statement. How can the Rogues be more badass before when you haven't met them all yet? Could it be this relaunch is bad to you because you decided it was bad before it happened? Which by the way I'm not saying you don't have the right to feel that way. But I imagine its hard to be excited for something you hate to see happen just like you can't seem to understand why some of us returnees are very very happy with this relaunch. I always tell people to not read what they don't enjoy. Just forget about it. Things will improve for you or your outlook will change. The lapsed readers regained are proof eventually something happens that makes you love DC comics again. And down the road you might be asking someone to stop hating the returned fans just because what they were reading didn't sell enough so now you're back.

  3. #183
    Senior Member PennyDreadful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fate's Faith View Post
    This just opens you up to the lack of information to make that statement. How can the Rogues be more badass before when you haven't met them all yet?
    You're right--I haven't met the nu Rogues yet. But I liked the Rogues as they were handled under Johns' pen. (Well, except for Trickster and Pied Piper.) I especially liked his Captain Cold. IMO, the Rogues did not need metahuman powers to be badass. This is a case of fixing what isn't broken.

    Could it be this relaunch is bad to you because you decided it was bad before it happened? Which by the way I'm not saying you don't have the right to feel that way. But I imagine its hard to be excited for something you hate to see happen just like you can't seem to understand why some of us returnees are very very happy with this relaunch.
    I did in fact buy 13-14 of the relaunch titles. To be honest, I was not impressed with most of them. I really, really tried to give DC a chance before and after the reboot. But the same problems were there as before: slow pacing, dull storylines, humorlessness, and a lack of heart. Perhaps previous books didn't sell because, quite simply, they weren't good books? Consider some of the fiascoes from DC from the past 5 years alone: Countdown to Final Crisis, Bart Allen's Flash book, Amazons Attack, Cry for Justice, and that awful Roy Harper miniseries. If DC had published more titles like, say, the Blackest Night mini, Gail Simone's Birds of Prey, or Geoff Johns' GL, they wouldn't need a reboot to goose sales.

    I did browse through a copy of the recent Flash, hoping to find something special. I couldn't get into it. I picked up Green Lantern: New Guardians because I like the Rainbow brigade concept. It was just a lot of Lanterns fighting with each other. It got tiresome. I hoped Demon Knights would be a breakout hit. Instead? I kept wondering when the characters were going to leave the damn village. I also hoped Birds of Prey would be cool. But the previous BoP had heart. This book doesn't. And I still have no clue why Dinah and Ev are on the run from the law.

    I used to enjoy DC. I liked BoP, Sandman, and Teen Titans. I'd been getting into Flash and GL. Sure, the constant reboots and crisis crossovers in the past decade were kind of annoying, but I was willing to give it a shot.

    The same people responsible for many of DC's recent missteps are behind the reboot, so there is, IMO, no drastic change in tone or policy. Just in the numbering of books.

    If people enjoy the reboot, fine. I realize a lot of long-time fans who missed the pre-COIE DCU enjoy it. And yes, I'm sure DC was hoping to recapture those fans. People shouldn't take criticism of DC personally.

    I always tell people to not read what they don't enjoy. Just forget about it. Things will improve for you or your outlook will change.
    Considering I'm drifting toward Marvel and indies these days, I can say that this is happening. I'm starting to tune out DC news. There are times when I'll be curious/excited about a New 52 title, and then there's some piece of news that'll kill the interest.

    The lapsed readers regained are proof eventually something happens that makes you love DC comics again.
    Again, I don't begrudge the people who returned, especially not the readers DC was obviously aiming for (and I'm not part of DC's targeted demographic of males 18-34 by any means). DC wanted lapsed readers back, and some have returned. Comic book publishers in general need to market toward kids as well, otherwise they won't survive. I don't see DC or any other publisher addressing the need to attract new readers.

    And down the road you might be asking someone to stop hating the returned fans just because what they were reading didn't sell enough so now you're back.
    As a general rule, I don't hate on fans. That's dumb. People have the right to their opinions. I do question DC's execution of this reboot. They definitely seem to be making up continuity as they go along.

    I do think it remains to be seen if DC can keep these readers when the novelty of a reboot wears off. And given the way DC changes plans every 2-5 years, I don't think it's worth it to get too invested in these books and characters anyway.

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