Feels like the New 52 is throwing out the baby with the bathwater so far...

[lantern1991]

I think problems with history depend on the reader some people want to know everything about a character going in while others can pick up a book and enjoy it without knowing the characters whole history, Im enjoying the new 52 there's a lot of great stories that wouldnt have worked in the old universe , best example the justice society it's great too see them on their own earth with updated looks and new origins . There's some things I'm not happy with but for me at least the good definitely outweighs the bad.

[ForeverYoung8]

^That's just another problem. For me the characters aren't just a "name and power set". And I wasn't around for the last reboot, but looking back, this is quite different given the history of post-crisis was incredibly more important/dense than the pre-crisis universe.

I think you consider this to be quite different only because it's now happening to you. Pre-Crisis, Barry Allen & Supergirl had a lot of fans. It would be...what...almost a quarter of a century before Barry came back? Even when Supergirl (Kara) was brought back by Loeb she wasn't the "same" Kara people knew. But prior to Flashpoint, she very closely resembled her old self (to me, anyway). It's comics, it happens. And I wouldn't say Post-Crisis was more important than Pre-Crisis. At all. (even though I prefer Post, Pre-Crisis is unimaginably important)

Sooner or later, everyone's favorite character comes back. If they're given new attitudes, they eventually revert back to the old ones. Byrne's Superman was much different than Pre-Crisis...Clark was the true identity, Superman was the mask. It was quite a change from the Superman everyone knew. By the early 2000's, he reverted back to the "Great Rao!", Clark is a clumsy joke, type character. Batman was grim-dark (my personal favorite) from Todd's death until Morrison lightened him up and brought back some of the zany sci-fi.

Your favorite characters might not be recognizable to you now, but they will be eventually. Sometimes sales dictate a change, sometimes it's because a hot writer has a story they're dying to tell that shakes up the status quo. Believe me, I (and others) know exactly hiw you feel as we've been there before. Just stick with it, and you'll get your favorites back eventually.

[ForeverYoung8]

I'm surprised most if not all previous readers don't treat it exactly that way. This is comics after all. I still exist on the idea these are the same characters I've always known since childhood who have gone through several Crisis and Zero Hours and now Flashpoint. So all continuity is *in* for me even the parts I don't care for but what's current is what I'm buying today. But my first exposure still exists and back issues allow you to revisit the past.

Exactly.

Some people want everything spelled out for them, every moment of these characters' lives chronicled. But comics, in essence, sparks your imagination. Gets the creative juices flowing.

Show of hands for the people who "hear" Conroy's voice while reading Batman? Hammil while reading Joker? Do you ever "hear" the sound effects during an action scene? Did you "hear" Williams' Suoerman theme when Superman launched himself into the sun in All Star #12? This is your imagination at work. Sparking your creativity.

As such, my imagination fills in the blanks for me. Often, it's automatic without me even having to think about it. Remember Batman's big reveal to Green Lantern in the new Justice League? He did that because, subconsciously and without realizing it, he knew Hal could be trusted because they knew each other prior to reality changing. Batman once took in a street punk named Jason Todd because subconsciously he remembered that Jason could be a partner. It wasn't to get Jason off the streets, or to give him a better life; Hell, Batman had probably met hundreds of kids just like him. But every time a crisis (Flashpoint included) changes history or reality, the old history isn't wiped away...it's just buried.

Anyone remember using VCR tapes to record television programs a while back? Did you ever use the same tape, over and over, recording something new over what had been there before? It's kind of like that. Every now and again you'd get a flicker of the last program on the tape that would come through, and if the tape was worn out you'd get instances of the occasional "ghost image" laying underneath or between the new program. This is how I view continuity. Everything that ever happened is still there, but each Crisis event "tapes over" the old stuff. The old stuff is still there, sometimes flickering through.

Again, it probably sounds weird...but my crazy brain just automatically fills in these gaps. Sorry for the long post, I just really love talking about this stuff.

[NotSuper]

I pride myself on my knowledge of DC's vast history, and especially on my knowledge of minute details.

That being said, I'd rather have a more coherent, new reader friendly DCU. I want others to read the comics and share my interest. To me, that's much more important than "my" history being trapped forever in amber. I'm more of a greater good kind of person, and the more people who can jump right in and enjoy the DCU the better.

[shark]

I honestly don't see how this universe is less complicated than the previous one. Or if its less complicated now, how long will that last? Will DC reboot the universe every time the universe gets too complicated for new readers? Say... in a year?

Not the poll, but the comments themselves, which are qualitative. When you read them, you hear from people how important the relaunch was to their giving the new52 a try. And that thread has continued, rather than being just a month's measurement.

Whereas the Neilsen report is basically quantitative - how many people answered which answer in multiple choice questions given over a very limited amount of time.. Interesting and useful, but not a lot of information on its own - how things change over time with the next poll will be more telling.

Again, a minority in an internet forum. Doesn't prove anything. And for every new reader that says they love the reboot you have plenty of people who don't care and don't go into this or any other forum to voice their opinion. The only way you can gauge how well the reboot is doing is by sales.

[Jim Thompson]

... "my" history being trapped forever in amber.

That does seem to be what a lot of people seem to want, doesn't it?

[NotSuper]

That does seem to be what a lot of people seem to want, doesn't it?

Sadly, yes. As for myself, I believe in evolution rather than things staying the same.

[Jim Thompson]

Sadly, yes. As for myself, I believe in evolution rather than things staying the same.

I like what Marv Wolfman said about this in his introduction to collected edition of Crisis On Infinite Earths:

Every generation of comic-book readers deserves to have the comics belong to them, not to their older siblings and parents.

B.J. Oropeza, author of The Gospel According to Superheroes: Religion and Pop Culture added this:

The key, then, is to is to recapture the original spirit of classic heroes, yet somehow make them relevant for contemporary audiences.

DC's relaunch seems to be keeping both these thoughts in mind as they move forward -- and that, I think, is a good thing.

[David Walton]

DC seems to work best with their finger on the reset button every ten years or so. I think it's because their heroes have a more mythic, larger than life quality, and that lends itself to constant reinvention.

Marvel, on the other hand, really does well with an established history that gets tweaked from time to time but remains largely consistent.

[glennsim]

I honestly don't see how this universe is less complicated than the previous one. Or if its less complicated now, how long will that last? Will DC reboot the universe every time the universe gets too complicated for new readers? Say... in a year?



Again, a minority in an internet forum. Doesn't prove anything. And for every new reader that says they love the reboot you have plenty of people who don't care and don't go into this or any other forum to voice their opinion. The only way you can gauge how well the reboot is doing is by sales.

Which are up compared to the trend they were on before the relaunch.

[SteveGus]

That being said, I'd rather have a more coherent, new reader friendly DCU. I want others to read the comics and share my interest. To me, that's much more important than "my" history being trapped forever in amber. I'm more of a greater good kind of person, and the more people who can jump right in and enjoy the DCU the better.

With the DC major characters, this runs in a different way. A whole lot of people already know who Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are. Not quite as many but a large number know who, say, Catwoman is. When they pick up a title that says Superman they expect to be reading about the Superman they know, just like if they go to a movie called Catwoman they expect the Catwoman they know to be in it, and will be strongly disappointed when she isn't. The real problem is with excessive changes to characters whose basic premises and supporting casts should be preserved in their most familiar form.

Friendliness to new readers is more a function of writing style than anything else. I see DC falling behind Marvel on the new-reader friendliness of most of its titles. Many Marvel books will at least have a synopsis page so that you can pick one up and follow the story. Never seen one in a DC book.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

If you like the old stuff, it's still there for you to read. No one's stopping you.

Huh? Of course I can re-read any old story I want. What does that have to do with what I'm saying?

I'm concerned that the new DCU history threw out too much of its backstory so that new stories won't be able to use them to give the characters more depth. For instance, Hal & Ollie aren't nearly as interesting to me without them both going through the Hard-Travelling Heroes era. That backstory is crucial to them in my mind. Now, I'm certainly NOT saying the O'Neil & Adams stories must have happened exactly like they did in those original comics, because they are very, very dated now and don't hold up at all. That said, I think it's important for both of those characters to have wandered around America trying to fix America's social problems instead of punching yet another super-villain in the nose. Without those events in their history, they're just cocky &#$@ without much depth.

I understand that having their heroes at a younger, less mature and seasoned stage of their careers can open up new stories for them, but losing key stuff like this feels pointless to me. Johns has said they don't want to re-tell old stories, so why bother ditching such important benchmarks like this?

[Mat001]

Show of hands for the people who "hear" Conroy's voice while reading Batman? Hammil while reading Joker? Do you ever "hear" the sound effects during an action scene? Did you "hear" Williams' Suoerman theme when Superman launched himself into the sun in All Star #12? This is your imagination at work. Sparking your creativity.

Yep to all of them.

That being said, I'd rather have a more coherent, new reader friendly DCU. I want others to read the comics and share my interest. To me, that's much more important than "my" history being trapped forever in amber. I'm more of a greater good kind of person, and the more people who can jump right in and enjoy the DCU the better.

The thing is that it didn't affect a lot of readers for years and years. That's why I don't exactly buy that argument today. Even with the success of the DCnU, a lot of that success came from the advertisement of a new jumping on point, more than starting everything over.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

By the way, I also practice the Grant Morrison "Build Your Own Continuity" theory of DCU history so I'm not complaining because the New 52 has upset my personal view of what the DCU should be. I just think they've limited themselves rather than freed themselves by ditching so much but also promising not to simply re-do old stories.

[Master X]

^I'd argue like 98% of the DCNU's current success (and lack of success with a bunch of the title) is simply down to the better marketing, number 1s and the "gotta buy 'em all!" factor. The history nuke/reset barely factors in. Sure, for SOME the new start it will matter (not that it really WAS a new start since we now have a fake unknowable 5 year histories)), but the majority? REALLY? C'mon people you know the answer.

To the dude who replied to my post; As for the characters I love eventually coming back and being recognisable. Hmmm...Barry? I'm pretty sure most of the Barry lovers thought YES WE GOT OUR CHARACTER BACK AND IT'S THE SAME ONE! Then the reboot happened and it no longer is. I'm sure they loved him for the year they had him back. But face it, if this NU history sticks, the characters aren't EVER going to come back the way you recognised them since the actually histories are no longer the same. To me the characters will always be an accumulation of their histories and interactions which made the character they were and the stories they were in. They are no longer that. I simply can't follow a character if they reboot and are no longer the same character but in name every 5-minutes.