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  1. #91
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    the space Avengers had a decent chance actually. So far they've done more to help than any of the X-Men, despite their lack of experience/information.
    Th Avengers in space had a small chance, the Rest of the Avengers plan is like fighting a forest fire with a squirt gun while dragging the fire-engine away from the fire.
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  2. #92
    On your left. tg1982's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    So Cyke should have let the clueless take control of the girl and endangered the Earth in the process?
    No, Cyke should of offered to go with Hope and the Avengers and give them better intel so they would be able to combat this threat. Instead of throwing a temper tantrum like a petulent child. The second Cyke shot at Cap was when Cyke declared war. Cap was forced to respond, and now due to Cyke's narrow mindedness instead of fighting the real threat they're fighting each other.

  3. #93

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    It's a good conflict. The pace seems frantic and rushed. There just isn't time to plan. I sympathize more with Cap; he has the responsibility of the world on is shoulders, while Cyke seems still focused on a racist (specieist?) level.

    (Mostly I wish we had the 70's Englehart/Brunner/Colan Doc back T.T! It's like Baron Mordu is the editor for Doc at Marvel )

  4. #94
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infiltr8r0618 View Post
    No, Cyke should of offered to go with Hope and the Avengers and give them better intel so they would be able to combat this threat. Instead of throwing a temper tantrum like a petulent child. The second Cyke shot at Cap was when Cyke declared war. Cap was forced to respond, and now due to Cyke's narrow mindedness instead of fighting the real threat they're fighting each other.
    Yeah, as far as intel goes Steve has been willing to work with every X-Men that's not attacking him 2 seconds after he opens his mouth. He worked closely with Logan and Beast at the start, and he's working with Rachel now. If the Avengers indeed are operating on bad intel, frankly I'd argue that's more the X-Men's fault at this point than the Avengers. If we're presuming that the Avengers intel is bad, then it's because either the people who gave it to them gave them bad intel (Logan and Beast), or they're attacking the Avengers rather than giving them the intel (Scott), or they're just plain not giving them the proper intel for no reason whatsoever (Rachel).

    Between what we're seeing from Logan and Beast on one end, and Cyclops from another, it's like the X-men WANT this fight with the Avengers. They're literally doing everything possible to bring that about. I don't get it.

  5. #95
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infiltr8r0618 View Post
    No, Cyke should of offered to go with Hope and the Avengers and give them better intel so they would be able to combat this threat. Instead of throwing a temper tantrum like a petulent child. The second Cyke shot at Cap was when Cyke declared war. Cap was forced to respond, and now due to Cyke's narrow mindedness instead of fighting the real threat they're fighting each other.
    Cap stated a demand, a idiotic nonnegotiable demand that he knew was not going to be revived well. How is he any less narrow minded than Cyke?

    The two teams have diametrically opposed plans for dealing with the PF. Why should Cyke have helped with the Plan that has little likelihood of successe? Please tell me where a middle ground of comprise exists that they could have reached?

    Did you notice what side the only real expert on the PF chose?
    Last edited by mikekerrIII; 05-08-2012 at 04:48 PM.
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  6. #96
    On your left. tg1982's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Yeah, as far as intel goes Steve has been willing to work with every X-Men that's not attacking him 2 seconds after he opens his mouth. He worked closely with Logan and Beast at the start, and he's working with Rachel now. If the Avengers indeed are operating on bad intel, frankly I'd argue that's more the X-Men's fault at this point than the Avengers. If we're presuming that the Avengers intel is bad, then it's because either the people who gave it to them gave them bad intel (Logan and Beast), or they're attacking the Avengers rather than giving them the intel (Scott), or they're just plain not giving them the proper intel for no reason whatsoever (Rachel).

    Between what we're seeing from Logan and Beast on one end, and Cyclops from another, it's like the X-men WANT this fight with the Avengers. They're literally doing everything possible to bring that about. I don't get it.
    Agree 100%.

    And it sucks, I used to LOVE Cyke that was back before Morrison (I think) and this hard-a** "edge" they're trying to give him for the last few years.
    As I said Cyke only seems to care about roughly 200 people on Earth, Cap cares about all of the people on Earth, including those same 200. So it defies logic on Cykes part honestly.

  7. #97
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infiltr8r0618 View Post
    Agree 100%.

    And it sucks, I used to LOVE Cyke that was back before Morrison (I think) and this hard-a** "edge" they're trying to give him for the last few years.
    As I said Cyke only seems to care about roughly 200 people on Earth, Cap cares about all of the people on Earth, including those same 200. So it defies logic on Cykes part honestly.
    Cap is willing to risk the Earth on some silly assumptions, Cyke is willing to risk it on facts and experience. Who is acting irrationally?
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  8. #98
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    Cap stated a demand, a idiotic nonnegotiable demand that he knew was not going to be revived well. How is he any less narrow minded than Cyke?

    The two teams have diametrically opposed plans for dealing with the PF. Why should Cyke have helped with the Plan that has little likelihood of successe? Please tell me where a middle ground of comprise exists that they could have reached?

    Did you notice what side the only real expert on the PF chose?
    The fact that Steve doesn't shoot at Cyclops pretty much makes him less narrow minded than Cyke by default.

  9. #99
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    Cap is willing to risk the Earth on some silly assumptions, Cyke is willing to risk it on facts and experience. Who is acting irrationally?
    The idiot shooting at the other guys rather than simply sharing information and pooling resources would be the irrational one.

    Steve may end up being wrong... but he's not acting irrationally. He got imput from people who are credible sources. He's working with Rachel right now. IF indeed the X-Men aren't giving him valid intel, that's more on them than on him. He's talking to and working with the right people, at least from his perspective.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    The fact that Steve doesn't shoot at Cyclops pretty much makes him less narrow minded than Cyke by default.
    Moments like this in AvX make me weep, becuase an actually tactical discussion and/or battle between Cap and Cyke would be AMAZING. These guys are very similar in some ways, but different enough that they would clash together so well if approached logically. Instead, I think both sides are being mischaracterized. Cap knows how volatile things are, and is probably smart enough to use a proxy before hopping over withan elite squad of super-powered soldiers. Cyke is also smart enough to remeber that if things go bad with the Phoenix, they go REALLY bad. He would have a contingency in place, Something! I just don't think its in his nature to trust any "supreme power" that easily.

  11. #101
    On your left. tg1982's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    Cap is willing to risk the Earth on some silly assumptions, Cyke is willing to risk it on facts and experience. Who is acting irrationally?
    No, Cap is willing to risk the Earth on what intel he has at his disposal, If Cyke would of comprimised instead of blasting him, that intell would be much better. Meanwhile Cyke is willing to risk the planet, knowing what he knows, on desperation. So I ask you who is acting irrationally?

    To me it sure isn't Cap.

  12. #102
    On your left. tg1982's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    The fact that Steve doesn't shoot at Cyclops pretty much makes him less narrow minded than Cyke by default.
    Ha, pretty much my thoughts on this too.

  13. #103
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    The fact that Steve doesn't shoot at Cyclops pretty much makes him less narrow minded than Cyke by default.

    The idiot shooting at the other guys rather than simply sharing information and pooling resources would be the irrational one.
    Would anything less have caused Steve to not take the girl? When did he offer to do anything but let Cyke Help with Caps plan?
    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Steve may end up being wrong... but he's not acting irrationally. He got imput from people who are credible sources. He's working with Rachel right now. IF indeed the X-Men aren't giving him valid intel, that's more on them than on him. He's talking to and working with the right people, at least from his perspective.
    Rachael is playing Cap, and the X-men know he is not going to listen to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by infiltr8r0618 View Post
    No, Cap is willing to risk the Earth on what intel he has at his disposal, If Cyke would of compromised instead of blasting him, that intell would be much better. Meanwhile Cyke is willing to risk the planet, knowing what he knows, on desperation. So I ask you who is acting irrationally?

    To me it sure isn't Cap.
    Cyke is not acting out of desperation. Ke is acting on the the way he knows the PF acts, for example: since when has the PF been more dangerous with a host? Since when has distance meant anything to it?

    Where is the possible compromise between Cyke and Cap? Please explain where a middle ground would exist between the two. Sometime goals are in such opposition that compromise is simple not on the table.

    If Cap was interested in any comprise why start there discussion with something the other guy won't comprise on and make it a demand? Why start with a demand you KNOW will end the conversation?
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  14. #104
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    Would anything less have caused Steve to not take the girl? When did he offer to do anything but let Cyke Help with Caps plan?
    Rachael is playing Cap, and the X-men know he is not going to listen to them.

    Will anything less have caused Steve to not take the girl? We'll never know. That's the point. And the problem.

    And as far as Rachel playing Steve... again, based on the assumption that the Avengers are working on bad intel, perhaps had the X-Men working with the Avengers given them better intel that wouldn't be a problem.

    You're saing that Cap isn't going to listen... listen to what? That's the issue here. They're not telling him anything. Nothing to listen to. IF the X-Men give him bad intel or simply don't bother telling him anything, again that's more on the X-Men than Steve.

  15. #105
    On your left. tg1982's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    Rachael is playing Cap, and the X-men know he is not going to listen to them.
    Then anything that happens is on the X-men's heads.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    Where is the possible compromise between Cyke and Cap? Please explain where a middle ground would exist between the two.
    Well one possible middle ground is "Okay Hope and I will go, but if the Phoenix Force can help the mutants we need to try." Then Cap would of obviously agreed and let Cyke come aboard with Hope. "Thanks, we need to work this out, but if their is a way we can help eachother safely then you have our support. Tell us what you know about the Phoenix Force." It may not work in the end be at least it's a possibility, Blasting Cap eliminates all possibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    If Cap was interested in any comprise why start there discussion with something the other guy won't comprise on and make it a demand? Why start with a demand you KNOW will end the conversation?
    Prior to being blasted Cap says "We need to take care of this" and "We have to figure out a way to stop it". Which atleast gives the chance to discuss a comprimise. Then Cyke blasts him, eliminating all chances. Then Cap still pleads with him to end this fight and Cyke doesn't. The bottom line is Cyclops shot first, eliminating any shot of peacfully solving this, then when Cap pleads for Cyke to to stand down so they can still discuss this he balks at the offer leaving Cap no choice but to shield bash him.

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