Movie Avengers vs. Movie X-Men

**Syrile Demonthyst** · 05-07-2012, 01:22 AM

Originally Posted by big_adventure

In any case, it doesn't matter at all for this fight - she could have high-end BT thought speed, and it wouldn't matter in the slightest against Thor and Hulk.

Yep.
Though I do imagine this will come up a lot in threads now that it has been discussed.. :/

**The Watcher** · 05-07-2012, 02:10 AM

Just a reminder to keep things civil and remember that just because people are arguing against your assertion doesn't mean that it is personal.

**big_adventure** · 05-07-2012, 05:34 AM

Originally Posted by Syrile Demonthyst

Yep.
Though I do imagine this will come up a lot in threads now that it has been discussed.. :/

The downside of bringing things up.

Just to be absolutely clear - her "catch lots of stuff feat" is AT BEST really, really, really low end BT, more likely just somewhere between the high end of CBPH equivalent and "ringer". Like I said a bit ago, I went back and watched the scene this morning to confirm, and the darts are clearly trackable by eye - meaning that their velocity is not likely higher than a few hundred feet per second. I say above CBPH only because she doesn't dodge them - she catches them and then holds each of them up and in place. A CBPH could dodge a bunch of said darts, and could catch a couple, but I think it's getting into ringer equivalent when you can catch a hundred or more in a second.

Mind you, that grade is only if you subscribe to the "I caught that shit" school of thought. If you believe that it was some kind of passive shield (though there is no evidence that it was such a shield), then she would only need to be "pretty quick" to do it - not even CBPH.

**cbrer** · 05-07-2012, 07:02 AM

Regardless of whether or not her stopping bullets is indicative of bullet time speed, the fact remains that all she needs to do is think. None of the Avengers have shown that they are faster than that, given that they also need to think, and their thinking speed has not been shown to be faster than her thinking speed. Iron man flying about shooting lasers and dodging rockets does not show that. The fact remains is that in order for Iron man do do anything, he first has to think, then make an action while the command goes to his armor, and while he's acting - most likely raising his arms to fire his blasts or move towards anything, Jean or Phoenix has already thought as well. In in her case, once she thinks TK forcefield, then a TK forcefield automatically appears.

And just to clarify in X2, she took control over Xavier, not the entire X-team. She spoke through him like he was her mouthpiece. She also telekinetically stopped Nightcrawler from teleporting out of the Blackbird. And did this while fixing the engines, while holding back the wave of water with her forcefields.

**Surtur** · 05-07-2012, 12:10 PM

I just have a quick question regarding speed and the Phoenix. How fast were the projectiles in the cure guns they shot at her compared to bullets?

Unless wait, was there a part where she stops bullets too? Also, did she have any warning? I know her back was to the soldiers, but IIRC didn't Wolverine begin shouting "No" or whatever as they took aim and such?

**Guy1** · 05-07-2012, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Surtur

I just have a quick question regarding speed and the Phoenix. How fast were the projectiles in the cure guns they shot at her compared to bullets?

Unless wait, was there a part where she stops bullets too? Also, did she have any warning? I know her back was to the soldiers, but IIRC didn't Wolverine begin shouting "No" or whatever as they took aim and such?

Video I found for Dark Phoenix.

**Drax1981** · 05-07-2012, 01:15 PM

I'll give the Avengers the victory on style points.
Did you TK your way over to a clearance rack for that indifferently cut get up, Jean?
On the other hand, she is ripping everything apart down to atoms. I don't think any of the Avengers has any feats against that. It looks like only the 'breakout' star of an alleged ensemble production has any sort of defense against that particular move.

**Surtur** · 05-07-2012, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by Drax1981

I'll give the Avengers the victory on style points.
Did you TK your way over to a clearance rack for that indifferently cut get up, Jean?
On the other hand, she is ripping everything apart down to atoms. I don't think any of the Avengers has any feats against that. It looks like only the 'breakout' star of an alleged ensemble production has any sort of defense against that particular move.

She never killed anyone as durable as Hulk and Thor, so they should survive just fine.

**Deadman25** · 05-07-2012, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by Surtur

She never killed anyone as durable as Hulk and Thor, so they should survive just fine.

Right, especially hulk since she couldn't banish logan cause of his healing.

**Syrile Demonthyst** · 05-07-2012, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by cbrer

Regardless of whether or not her stopping bullets is indicative of bullet time speed, the fact remains that all she needs to do is think. None of the Avengers have shown that they are faster than that, given that they also need to think, and their thinking speed has not been shown to be faster than her thinking speed. Iron man flying about shooting lasers and dodging rockets does not show that. The fact remains is that in order for Iron man do do anything, he first has to think, then make an action while the command goes to his armor, and while he's acting - most likely raising his arms to fire his blasts or move towards anything, Jean or Phoenix has already thought as well. In in her case, once she thinks TK forcefield, then a TK forcefield automatically appears.

And just to clarify in X2, she took control over Xavier, not the entire X-team. She spoke through him like he was her mouthpiece. She also telekinetically stopped Nightcrawler from teleporting out of the Blackbird. And did this while fixing the engines, while holding back the wave of water with her forcefields.

You misunderstand speed then.
Reflex speed, and thus combat-effective speed is directly tied to how fast you can use your powers, etc.
And since she has no real combat speed (unless someone can show her reacting specifically to a projectile after it is fired, etc. of course) we have no way of gauging her speed above that of a standard human.
If anything she continually seems distracted.

The whole argument of "Thought Speed" has been brought up time and time again. And it always goes the same way. Just because a power is activated by thought does not mean that said power can activate faster than someone who is faster than the person activating it. Barring of course that the person activating it actually has reflexes comparable to the other person.

Without some form of superior reflexes she is not reacting to the projectiles that the Avengers have since trained soldiers cannot do so.
Thus since they are shown to have a higher speed than her, they will act first, she would not be able to react to the projectile, and she would die since she has no durability to withstand those hits.

**Syrile Demonthyst** · 05-07-2012, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by Surtur

I just have a quick question regarding speed and the Phoenix. How fast were the projectiles in the cure guns they shot at her compared to bullets?

Hard to say to be honest.
Fast enough to be projectiles but they did not appear to be bullet-speed at all.

Originally Posted by Surtur

Unless wait, was there a part where she stops bullets too?

Probably not since bullets would be suicide against Magneto.

Originally Posted by Surtur

Also, did she have any warning? I know her back was to the soldiers, but IIRC didn't Wolverine begin shouting "No" or whatever as they took aim and such?

That is what someone said but since we cannot get a clip I have no idea.
If she was warned and did not turn but still stopped them, it is a fair assumption that she projected a shield.
Definitely more believable than having her suddenly gain an insane speed boost that she does not appear to have any other time.
Even without a warning it is unlikely that she suddenly felt the projectiles and then singly blocked them.. It is too vague of a feat to get a feel for her speed. Speed which seems nonexistent.

Now, if we can get at least a single good reaction feat, I would be very pleased.

**Guy1** · 05-07-2012, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by Syrile Demonthyst

That is what someone said but since we cannot get a clip I have no idea.

Originally Posted by Guy1

Video I found for Dark Phoenix.

Yo.^

**Syrile Demonthyst** · 05-07-2012, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by Guy1

Yo.^

Ah, cool.
I thought that was the crappy video I saw before, lol.
So, she clearly does move slightly after they are fired...
However they do not appear to be very fast at all considering that it appears that Logan is actually yelling while they are in the air.
So they are either slowing down while he is yelling or they are moving very slowly.. Weird.
I honestly do not know how to call that. It is either that she has a field slowing them down, or that it is just really bad choreography for the shots... which I am leaning more towards...
Bleh. I have no clue.

**K Von Doom** · 05-07-2012, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by Syrile Demonthyst

Have you ever played Poker (Texas Hold'em)?
If so, you know that there are some hands where regardless of what the River may hold, you still have a 0% chance of winning.
So, just because you draw a card that happens to give you a better hand does not mean you have any chance of winning at all.
Same here.

I was gonna try to explain it this way but couldn't think of the poker terms for some reason