Movie Avengers+Loki VS Cartoon JLA

[Basara]

Because Selvigs eyes were clearly NOT blue and the cosmic cube hadnt been unlocked yet. Long distance mind control is a natural part of Loki's powerset in the comics; the film honors that.

Loki wasn't controlling Selvig, he was subtly manipulating him. There is a vast difference between the two. We've not seen that Loki can mind control any hero or civilian outright without touching them first with the spear.

The durability feats of Thor, Loki and Hulk are on par or very close with Toon Justice League.

No, none have shown Superman's durability in his fights with Darkseid, Doomsday, Mongul, or Captain Marvel in the Justice League show.

Thor has been hit point blank by repulsers strong enough to blowup alien spaceships,

Are you talking alien capital ships here or the simple alien skimmers that the Chitauri are riding that can be taken down by a quinjet's gatling gun? Only only asking because the alien skimmers are the only alien "ships" Iron Man has taken down with his repulsers.

and Loki was walking unhindered after being ragdolled by the strongest man alive.

No he wasn't. Loki was out of the fight completely after being ragdolled. When he was finally able to drag his sorry butt up in intense pain, the entire Avengers team was calmly waiting for him. Now, Loki was durable enough to walk hours later, but during the fight, Loki was unable to do anything after being ragdolled. A speedblitzed punch from Superman is going to knock him out of the fight in less than a second.

Even Iron Man has taken better shots in these films than say...John Stewart.

Not even close to true. It doesn't matter though because John Stewart can easily defend himself against Iron Man's weapons long enough for one of the others to put Iron Man down.

They definitely last the first 3 seconds, and by then Loki is mind manipulating the team from an asteroid somewhere.

Into doing what? Mistrust each other? Grodd already tried that tactic on the Justice League and he's easily a better mind controller than Loki. Grodd basically had to manipulate their minds for weeks to get them just to get them to disband temporarily. He could only do that after endless research into each member's specific personality faults. I don't see this tactic being much help to Loki's team.

One more thing: nowhere in the movies has Loki shown that he can teleport away to an asteroid. He's stuck there, with everyone else.

[FrenchGemini]

They definitely last the first 3 seconds, and by then Loki is mind manipulating the team from an asteroid somewhere.

Oh, I didn't see that one earlier ^^. So you suggest Loki removes himself from the Arena, therefore forfeiting the match?

[WaveHeater]

Loki wasn't controlling Selvig, he was subtly manipulating him. There is a vast difference between the two. We've not seen that Loki can mind control any hero or civilian outright without touching them first with the spear.

Loki didnt have the spear in the 2011 film. and had yet to touch him with it. The post credits was outright WORD for WORD manipulation.

No, none have shown Superman's durability in his fights with Darkseid, Doomsday, Mongul, or Captain Marvel in the Justice League show.

We can only compare constants that exist in both worlds like structures, explosions and gunfire. We have no idea what kind of punches Hulk, Loki or Thor can take compared to TOON Shazaam or TOON Darkseid, let alone the Frost Giant Gods of Joutenheim. Avengers shake off being thrown into objects just like the JLs do. Thats all we know.

Into doing what? Mistrust each other? Grodd already tried that tactic on the Justice League and he's easily a better mind controller than Loki. Grodd basically had to manipulate their minds for weeks to get them just to get them to disband temporarily. He could only do that after endless research into each member's specific personality faults. I don't see this tactic being much help to Loki's team.

No, into physically attacking each other like Hulk did Thor/Blackwidow. AGAIN Loki didnt have to touch anybody to make this happen. At some point you have to concede hes using the same natural ability he has in the comics.

One more thing: nowhere in the movies has Loki shown that he can teleport away to an asteroid. He's stuck there, with everyone else.

Loki can travel through the realms without the BIfrost, as he proved in film 1 when he visited Joutenheim and snuck the Frost Giants into Asgard.
Its yet another film nod to his true powers in the comics.

Oh, I didn't see that one earlier ^^. So you suggest Loki removes himself from the Arena, therefore forfeiting the match?

if they can make it back under their own power, then they are still in the fight.

Not only can Loki make it back, but he is still actively prescient, just as he was when using the Destroyer to fight Thor.

[FrenchGemini]

if they can make it back under their own power, then they are still in the fight.

The rules say:

07. Leaving the field: Combatants who leave the field of combat on purpose forfeit the match. If they are removed from the arena against their will (being punched, thrown, teleported, etc.) and can make it back under their own power, then they are still in the fight. Obviously, if a combatant leaves the field and cannot return under their own power, then they have lost.

[Siriel]

if they can make it back under their own power, then they are still in the fight.

That's only if they're removed. If they leave on purpose it's a forfeit.

[MorphyVSFischer]

Also I'll point out the fact that even if Loki can mind control people still two problems:
1) Flash and Superman are still going to blitz the Avengers.
2) The fact the JLU have an active telepath is not going to help Loki with mind control.

[Captain Morgan]

Flash possessed by Braniac also displayed the vibration phase explode trick with highly destructive results, and it wasn't pointed out that it was something Flash can do, but chooses not to. Bloodlusted, he's actually pretty dangerous.

[Guy1]

Flash possessed by Braniac also displayed the vibration phase explode trick with highly destructive results, and it wasn't pointed out that it was something Flash can do, but chooses not to. Bloodlusted, he's actually pretty dangerous.

Don't you mean by Luthor? Brainiac never possessed Flash.
That said, The Flash did use the vibration trick on a Flash robot that Luthoriac made.

[Captain Morgan]

Yep, sorry about that.

[WaveHeater]

That's only if they're removed. If they leave on purpose it's a forfeit.

Thankyou for this clarification. How does flight work though? What if Superman wanted to get a birds eye view to use heatvision on an opponent? How high could he fly before its ringout?

Also I'll point out the fact that even if Loki can mind control people still two problems:
1) Flash and Superman are still going to blitz the Avengers.
2) The fact the JLU have an active telepath is not going to help Loki with mind control.

1. Flash's blitz required a 24,000 mile rev up and that was only enough to stun BrainiacLex. It took him a whole minute to finish the job, and then he got swallowed into the speedforce. Hes gonna get fried or mindjacked if he takes that long against an Asgardian. Or if he chooses to pitty pat Hulk who will get more durable with each lick.

IMO Thor takes out half the league (including Supes) using the 100 metre AOE he executed on the Frost Giants. Supes may get a couple of shots in, but once that mythical lightning hits its curtains. We have a clear instance of Superman being harmed by smaller bolts of magic lightning in "The Clash" episode.

2. The Martian is definitely the best bet on the Justice League side. Probably him and Thor left in the end.

[Basara]

Loki didnt have the spear in the 2011 film. and had yet to touch him with it. The post credits was outright WORD for WORD manipulation.

Planting a phrase in someone's mind is not the same as controlling him. If Loki had said, "Pick it up" and Selvig did, that would have constitute actual control. As it was, Loki only could manipulate Selvig at this point.

We can only compare constants that exist in both worlds like structures, explosions and gunfire. We have no idea what kind of punches Hulk, Loki or Thor can take compared to TOON Shazaam or TOON Darkseid, let alone the Frost Giant Gods of Joutenheim. Avengers shake off being thrown into objects just like the JLs do. Thats all we know.

That's what I'm doing. I'm comparing known Justice League feats to known Avengers feats. The Avengers do not have feats like punching villains through multiple buildings. The Avengers do not have feats of durability of being punched through multiple buildings (and said buildings coming down on them after) like Superman does from the Justice League show. Superman and Captain Marvel leveled an entire city by themselves and Superman wasn't even breathing hard after that fight. The Avengers do not have speed feats like the Justice League's Superman and Flash.

In all ways, the Avengers are demonstrably seriously outmatched here.

No, into physically attacking each other like Hulk did Thor/Blackwidow. AGAIN Loki didnt have to touch anybody to make this happen. At some point you have to concede hes using the same natural ability he has in the comics.

Wait, your great example of manipulation is Loki spending the better part of 30 minutes finally breaking down Banner's defenses to unleash his uncontrollable rage that constantly wants to emerge and bring the destruction?

Somehow, after dealing with the likes of Grodd, I don't think the Justice League is too scared of Loki's mild mind manipulation skills. But if you wish for Loki to throw down in the telepathic war, he'll find Martain Manhunter more than a match for him.

Loki can travel through the realms without the BIfrost, as he proved in film 1 when he visited Joutenheim and snuck the Frost Giants into Asgard.
Its yet another film nod to his true powers in the comics.

To quote the Frost Giant king: "So you are the one who showed us the way into Asgard." He had no idea it was Loki who showed the path to Asgard, meaning Loki didn't teleport them in himself. So he either sent a map, or turned on the Bifrost while cloaked and cloaked the frost giants when they came through. Loki might know other ways to travel through the realms, but by no means does this mean that he can teleport at will from one location to the other.

if they can make it back under their own power, then they are still in the fight.

Not only can Loki make it back, but he is still actively prescient, just as he was when using the Destroyer to fight Thor.

As other have pointed out, doing this is forfeiture of the fight, but even if this were not the case, what's Loki going to do? I've already proven he does not have true telepathic control capabilities, he can only manipulate people subtly.

It's all a moot point though, because Flash and Superman speedblitz the entire Avengers team before Loki can even think.

[Surtur]

1. Flash's blitz required a 24,000 mile rev up and that was only enough to stun BrainiacLex. It took him a whole minute to finish the job, and then he got swallowed into the speedforce. Hes gonna get fried or mindjacked if he takes that long against an Asgardian. Or if he chooses to pitty pat Hulk who will get more durable with each lick.

Here is the thing, that was Flash going his absolute fastest. He doesn't need to do that here, without any "rev up" time, he's moved so fast Superman(Who is faster then every single Avenger) was basically a statue. He can and will blitz any member of the Avengers, easily.

IMO Thor takes out half the league (including Supes) using the 100 metre AOE he executed on the Frost Giants. Supes may get a couple of shots in, but once that mythical lightning hits its curtains. We have a clear instance of Superman being harmed by smaller bolts of magic lightning in "The Clash" episode.

The problem is why is Supes just standing there, forgetting to use his superior speed? If we're assuming they are fighting like morons, sure the Avengers win, but it's not much of a win.

[Basara]

Thankyou for this clarification. How does flight work though? What if Superman wanted to get a birds eye view to use heatvision on an opponent? How high could he fly before its ringout?

IIRC, flight works from a standpoint that someone who can fly is well above normal melee and jumping ranges. We would assume that Superman is flying high enough that Batman cannot reach him, but a super jumper like Hulk could certainly take a shot at tagging Superman in the air. Think of it as watching a match in a ring. As long as the audience can see a contestant, he's still in the game. Certain rules can be bent though. Comic book Thor would be allowed to transport someone to another dimension and win. But comic book Thor jumping to another dimension, grabbing Odin, and coming back is a no-no. We're trying to argue who has the best powers, skills, etc.

IMO Thor takes out half the league (including Supes) using the 100 metre AOE he executed on the Frost Giants. Supes may get a couple of shots in, but once that mythical lightning hits its curtains. We have a clear instance of Superman being harmed by smaller bolts of magic lightning in "The Clash" episode.

Actually, Jon Stewart can easily shield the entire Justice League from Thor's AOE shockwave, especially given that he'll get the split second he needs to get the shield up when Thor raises his hammer. And you're also not considering what Thor just did to his teammates with that AOE shockwave. The Justice League can defend itself from that attack. The Avengers cannot.

[kane]

Superman blitzes Loki first, then starts to fight with Thor. He can easily dodge everything Thor throws at him and then can K.O. Thor with super strength punches thrown at super speed.

[WaveHeater]

It's all a moot point though, because Flash and Superman speedblitz the entire Avengers team

The most dangerous blitzer in this fight is neither Flash or Superman, its not even a person.

Against the Destroyer, Thor is completely bathed in his own lightning. Mjolnir streaks out of this glowing tesla, and strikes the Destroyer too fast for the camera to track. Who can seriously stop Thor if he chooses to fight an entire battle like this? Picking off mid level Leaguers with Mjlonir while in the comfort of his own lightning?


Also, Thor was pretty much dead and mortal before the bolt hit,so even if SUpes/flash can harm him in that split second, Thor will be completely revived, and oncoming blitzers get zapped like fruit flies.