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  1. #1
    Arkadeian prince aegisbearer's Avatar
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    Exclamation And yet another reminder about forum decorum...

    I'm going to make this simple so there's no chance of anyone misconstruing me:

    1. Do not attack a poster, either directly or subtly. Direct your comments at his or her comments and refute or agree with said ideas.

    2. Do not attack a creator, writer, artist, editor, etc., either directly or subtly. Discuss what he or she has done, and either refute or agree with said actions.

    Calling people Azzholes, Azzhats, etc., is disrespectful. End of story.

    If you don't like Azzarello's ideas, then discuss how much you don't like his IDEAS.

    Javier, Gaelforce, and I want a forum free of personal attacks. If you can't help yourself, either (a) talk on another forum or (b) be prepared for a ban.

    Thanks!
    Aegis
    Keep faith. Trust to love. Fight with honor. But, fight to win. - Gail Simone, Wonder Woman
    _________________________________________

    Author, Task Force: Gaea (Available on Amazon.com)

  2. #2
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Don't make me break out the waterin' can! :p

  3. #3
    Whiz Kids Vs. Witchcraft! tangentman's Avatar
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    An admirable goal, aegis, but it's extremely difficult to engage people in civil debate when one's posts are met with shrill defensiveness (or antagonism)...or "shouted down" by walls of text. When one undertakes the time and effort to post thoughtful critiques and/or comments, only to be met with an outright dismissal of that effort as "unreasonable", over-generalized in reactionary binaries ("You're either totally FOR or AGAINST Azzarello, NONE of that 'shades of gray' malarky"), or even "delusional" ("you think you're being 'thoughtful', but you're not...because I disagree with you"), how does one maintain a civil stance in debate?


    Members like me might feel like we're left with nothing but unattractive options: 1. Endure the abuse in silence. 2. Respond, and get shouted down, or escalate the situation. 3. Shutdown by some mods who may rather keep up the appearance of getting along, because of discomfort with open expressions of conflict. 4. Resort to lurking or leave the board altogether. The board has seemed like a very unpleasant, hostile environment for some time now. It is NOT because "WW fans are crazy/negative/demanding/etc."! I've been here since the board opened, and was here for the first incarnation waaay back in the late 90's. I've seen fans express passion for Wonder Woman, but I've very rarely seen actual "psychos".

    I'm just going to say it--the title changed hands on creators and brought an "artist-specific" set of new fans with it. Some of the fans had no prior interest in Wonder Woman. Many simply do NOT share some of the values of long-time WW fans, in terms of politics and ideas about the WW mythos. Inevitably, that combination brings conflict.

    For me, much of the problem lies in the resulting presentation of disagreements. I've seen so many wince-inducing posts in the past half-year or so. I mostly disengage, but some deserve a response because of the outright inappropriateness or blatant over-generalization.

    Sure, I could put certain folks on "Ignore"--but the "Quote" function sabotages that particular option. What can you do, then? Devote a special thread to "Debate 101" to avoid the logical fallacies that create these issues? Just play the game? Just leave a forum devoted to a character that I've loved my entire life because of an unruly-but-vocal minority?
    Last edited by tangentman; 05-06-2012 at 02:36 PM.
    Who needs CoTM when you can have a Skullie?

    I am Tangent Man! I do not care!

  4. #4
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    There is no 'discomfort with open expressions of conflict.'

    Calling someone names is against the rules.

    Directly insulting posters, groups of posters or creators is a violation and posts will be deleted.

    This has been the rule on this board from day one and the mods will continue to enforce it.

    People on the board may discuss the book, the characters or the views expressed by others til their heart's content, but name calling is juvenile and will not be tolerated regardless of which 'side' is doing the insulting.

  5. #5
    Arkadeian prince aegisbearer's Avatar
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    tangentman, I REFUSE to believe that people cannot be civil, even on an Internet forum. If posters can't abide by forum rules, then they have consequences. I've been busy with real life (hence why I asked Gael and Javier to jump on board), but rest assured, things will change very soon.

    While it's not the job of posters to do a mod's job, it does fall to the community as a whole to help out once in a while, without being rude, dismissive, or outright obnoxious.

    Gael, Javier, and I stand by this: if people cannot be and choose not to be civil and respectful, THEY. WILL. GO.

    I've been here way too long to endure a lack of respect to anyone. Have friendly debate and discourse all you want.

    Aegisbearer
    Keep faith. Trust to love. Fight with honor. But, fight to win. - Gail Simone, Wonder Woman
    _________________________________________

    Author, Task Force: Gaea (Available on Amazon.com)

  6. #6
    Gone
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    Quote Originally Posted by tangentman View Post
    An admirable goal, aegis, but it's extremely difficult to engage people in civil debate when one's posts are met with shrill defensiveness (or antagonism)...or "shouted down" by walls of text. When one undertakes the time and effort to post thoughtful critiques and/or comments, only to be met with an outright dismissal of that effort as "unreasonable", over-generalized in reactionary binaries ("You're either totally FOR or AGAINST Azzarello, NONE of that 'shades of gray' malarky"), or even "delusional" ("you think you're being 'thoughtful', but you're not...because I disagree with you"), how does one maintain a civil stance in debate? Members like me might feel like we're left with nothing but unattractive options: 1. Endure the abuse in silence. 2. Respond, and get shouted down, or escalate the situation. 3. Shutdown by some mods who may rather keep up the appearance of getting along, because of discomfort with open expressions of conflict. 4. Resort to lurking or leave the board altogether. The board has seemed like a very unpleasant, hostile environment for some time now. It is NOT because "WW fans are crazy/negative/demanding/etc."! I've been here since the board opened, and was here for the first incarnation waaay back in the late 90's. I've seen fans express passionf or Wonder Woman, but I've very rarely seen actual "psychos". I'm just going to say it--the title changed hands on creators and brought an "artist-specific" set of new fans with it. Some of the fans had no prior interest in Wonder Woman. Many simply do NOT share some of the values of long-time WW fans, in terms of politics and ideas about the WW mythos. Inevitably, that combination brings conflict. For me, much of the problem lies in the resulting presentation of disagreements. I've seen so many wince-inducing posts in the past half-year or so. I mostly disengage, but some deserve a response because of the outright inappropriateness or blatant over-generalization. Sure, I could put certain folks on "Ignore"--but the "Quote" function sabotages that particular option. What can you do, then? Devote a special thread to "Debate 101" to avoid the logical fallacies that create these issues? Just play the game? Just leave a forum devoted to a character that I've loved my entire life because of an unruly-but-vocal minority?
    Hope this helps.

    An admirable goal, aegis, but it's extremely difficult to engage people in civil debate when one's posts are met with shrill defensiveness (or antagonism)...or "shouted down" by walls of text.
    When one undertakes the time and effort to post thoughtful critiques and/or comments, only to be met with an outright dismissal of that effort as "unreasonable", over-generalized in reactionary binaries ("You're either totally FOR or AGAINST Azzarello,
    NONE of that 'shades of gray' malarky"), or even "delusional" ("you think you're being 'thoughtful', but you're not...because I disagree with you"), how does one maintain a civil stance in debate?
    Members like me might feel like we're left with nothing but unattractive options:
    1. Endure the abuse in silence.
    2. Respond, and get shouted down, or escalate the situation.
    3. Shutdown by some mods who may rather keep up the appearance of getting along, because of discomfort with open expressions of conflict.
    4. Resort to lurking or leave the board altogether.

    The board has seemed like a very unpleasant, hostile environment for some time now.
    It is NOT because "WW fans are crazy/negative/demanding/etc."!
    I've been here since the board opened, and was here for the first incarnation waaay back in the late 90's.
    I've seen fans express passionf or Wonder Woman, but I've very rarely seen actual "psychos".
    I'm just going to say it--the title changed hands on creators and brought an "artist-specific" set of new fans with it.
    Some of the fans had no prior interest in Wonder Woman.
    Many simply do NOT share some of the values of long-time WW fans, in terms of politics and ideas about the WW mythos.
    Inevitably, that combination brings conflict.
    For me, much of the problem lies in the resulting presentation of disagreements.
    I've seen so many wince-inducing posts in the past half-year or so.
    I mostly disengage, but some deserve a response because of the outright inappropriateness or blatant over-generalization.
    Sure, I could put certain folks on "Ignore"--but the "Quote" function sabotages that particular option.
    What can you do, then? Devote a special thread to "Debate 101" to avoid the logical fallacies that create these issues?
    Just play the game?
    Just leave a forum devoted to a character that I've loved my entire life because of an unruly-but-vocal minority?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by aegisbearer View Post
    tangentman, I REFUSE to believe that people cannot be civil, even on an Internet forum. If posters can't abide by forum rules, then they have consequences. I've been busy with real life (hence why I asked Gael and Javier to jump on board), but rest assured, things will change very soon.

    While it's not the job of posters to do a mod's job, it does fall to the community as a whole to help out once in a while, without being rude, dismissive, or outright obnoxious.

    Gael, Javier, and I stand by this: if people cannot be and choose not to be civil and respectful, THEY. WILL. GO.

    I've been here way too long to endure a lack of respect to anyone. Have friendly debate and discourse all you want.

    Aegisbearer
    All that sounds nice Aegis Bearer but it's hard to put into practice when other posters are trying to goad you into going off on them. Case in point...

    http://forums.comicbookresources.com...poilers/page20

  8. #8
    Whiz Kids Vs. Witchcraft! tangentman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    There is no 'discomfort with open expressions of conflict.'

    Calling someone names is against the rules.

    Directly insulting posters, groups of posters or creators is a violation and posts will be deleted.

    This has been the rule on this board from day one and the mods will continue to enforce it.

    People on the board may discuss the book, the characters or the views expressed by others til their heart's content, but name calling is juvenile and will not be tolerated regardless of which 'side' is doing the insulting.
    Isn't focusing exclusively on one incident of name-calling vs. a pattern of veiled AND open baits/insults a tad reductive?

    Zeu: Thanks for splitting my "Run-On From Hell"! For some reason, when I post from my laptop, paragraphs are mergd into a text nightmare. Not happening on other computers, and my laptop doesn't even pull that on other sites. Just CBR for some strange reason!

    Aegis: I understand, and thank you!
    Last edited by tangentman; 05-06-2012 at 02:40 PM.
    Who needs CoTM when you can have a Skullie?

    I am Tangent Man! I do not care!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximum Impact View Post
    All that sounds nice Aegis Bearer but it's hard to put into practice when other posters are trying to goad you into going off on them. Case in point...

    http://forums.comicbookresources.com...poilers/page20
    That was completely nothing compared what I had to go through on this board.

  10. #10
    Arkadeian prince aegisbearer's Avatar
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    tangentman, it's all reductive. Doesn't it just boil down to decency, civility, and respect?

    Quote Originally Posted by tangentman View Post
    Isn't focusing exclusively on one incident of name-calling vs. a pattern of veiled AND open baits/insults a tad reductive?
    I'm just over the puerile behavior. All of it. And Gaelforce and Javier will help make this forum a better place for Wonder Woman fans (and those who visit).
    Keep faith. Trust to love. Fight with honor. But, fight to win. - Gail Simone, Wonder Woman
    _________________________________________

    Author, Task Force: Gaea (Available on Amazon.com)

  11. #11
    Arkadeian prince aegisbearer's Avatar
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    Maximum Impact, not only does it sound good, but it will BE good. It's not hard to put into practice at all. When people who have no self-control start getting bans, others will understand.

    And since when did people give up free will? Does someone goading you mean you have to reply? (and by "you" I mean that generally).

    Instead of giving me a page to look at, how about a post or two?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximum Impact View Post
    All that sounds nice Aegis Bearer but it's hard to put into practice when other posters are trying to goad you into going off on them. Case in point...

    http://forums.comicbookresources.com...poilers/page20
    Keep faith. Trust to love. Fight with honor. But, fight to win. - Gail Simone, Wonder Woman
    _________________________________________

    Author, Task Force: Gaea (Available on Amazon.com)

  12. #12
    The Mad Artist RMAN63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aegisbearer View Post
    Maximum Impact, not only does it sound good, but it will BE good. It's not hard to put into practice at all. When people who have no self-control start getting bans, others will understand.

    And since when did people give up free will? Does someone goading you mean you have to reply? (and by "you" I mean that generally).

    Instead of giving me a page to look at, how about a post or two?
    Often the problem with this, is that it doesn't go from Jekyll to Hyde in 1 post. Things tend to get progressively worse in a course of a few pages of a thread, particularly the one where there was a Review and Discussion of the infamous #7 issue where it was implied by the creative forces that the Amazons like to go on sex raids to get impregnated with (hopefully) female children.

    Had it gone long enough, even Jerry Springer might have been jealous during some pages of it.

  13. #13

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    lol Azzhat
    I'm a bumblebee. I'm a bee and I need to get back to the hive.

  14. #14
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    To start with, the direct insults and name calling are the easy ones for us to delete and should be the easiest ones for posters to avoid. They're simple, blatant rules violations that anyone should be able to see and avoid.

    And if you don't avoid it and post it anyway, you certainly shouldn't be giving the mods a hard time for removing them. It's simple as that.

    Other posts are not always as cut and dried, and so we take them on a case by case basis. Keep in mind, a lot of messages are removed before you (general 'you' not specific 'you') get to see them. There's a lot that goes on that the average person posting is not aware of.

    A lot of times, moderators err on the side of the people posting. If it's not an obvious insult/attack, we try to let it stand but we interject into the thread asking people to tone it down. I know I've done so in several cases and so has Javier since the two of us joined the staff.

    So we're asking all of you to take a moment before you post, consider carefully what you're writing and think before you hit the button. From here on out, if it's not directly about the characters or the books, we're going to start deleting and we're going to start warning and then we're going to start banning.

    Thing is, we don't want to do that, so we're asking all of you for your help and consideration. Any posts that contribute to this silly 'us versus them' mentality is going to go even if it isn't a direct and obvious insult to another poster or to the creators. If you refer to the 'trend followers' or the 'haters' or to the mentality of such people, it's going to be removed.

    We want a place where people can discuss and debate like mature, civilized people. If you don't think you can do that, you might want to seek out a different forum.

    Of course we don't want anyone to leave. We welcome everyone regardless of whether they love the current run or aren't too fond of it, and you're more than welcome to express those opinions here in a civil and polite manner. But if you're just going to poke other people with a metaphorical sharp stick, we're going to start taking those sticks away and breaking them in half.

    Enough is enough.

    So let's all remember why it is we're (hopefully) here - to share in our love of the Wonder Woman character and engage one another in lively and even passionate discourse on the topic.

    :)

    Gaelforce
    Forum Mom/Moderator and Wonder Woman fan

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by tangentman View Post
    Isn't focusing exclusively on one incident of name-calling vs. a pattern of veiled AND open baits/insults a tad reductive?

    Zeu: Thanks for splitting my "Run-On From Hell"! For some reason, when I post from my laptop, paragraphs are mergd into a text nightmare. Not happening on other computers, and my laptop doesn't even pull that on other sites. Just CBR for some strange reason!

    Aegis: I understand, and thank you!
    No prob.

    I have the habit of skipping walls of text altogether (they look scarey :) ) but... I like you.

    Even though we couldn´t agree on the colour of the sky if our lives depended on it. ^_^

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