Does Wolverine owe Bishop an apology?

[mikekerrIII]

You seriously expect so many other people to have read the 198 miniseries that you'd be able to reference it as character motivation and expect others to know what you're talking about six years after the fact? I barely heard of the book when it was being published and advertised, and apparently I didn't miss out on anything. On a side-note, don't expect me to have followed too much of the liberal tripe that marvel's hippie brigade was spewing at the time; it was way too political for my tastes.

IN the X-books forum that is not an unreasonable assumption since it was quite an important story, Why comment on a story that you did not read?

[Ian Pressman]

So have many X-Men. I don't want to get that deep but I've never seen the same vitriol hurled at Bishop get hurled at Jean, Magneto, Emma. Scale is always given as the reason Bishop gets dumped on but Magneto has a pretty high kill count and has never paid for it in anyway and Emma did some horribly shady and disgusting things that she also has never paid for. But what is more is that with those others people were open to redemption. Bishop not so much.

I feel you. Wanda Maximoff being threatened with execution by Scott at the end of Children's Crusade, even though she didn't actually kill anyone, sits really poorly with me. All those people being killed by Bishop can totally be handwaved by it being an older version from an alternate future. All Bishop is is a guy from the future, there are all kinds of options a character like him can have in the hands of a good writer.

IN the X-books forum that is not an unreasonable assumption since it was quite an important story, Why comment on a story that you did not read?

I was writing of Bishop's actions in the Marvel mini-series event entitled: Civil war. Written by Mark Millar, illustrated by Steve McNiven. That is the book I assumed you were writing about, you didn't clarify otherwise until I commented on it. I seriously doubt anyone would see "CW" on a marvel comics forum and automatically assume: "198."

[ZNOP]

The first black males to set foot on this continent did so as free explorers, creators and builders. They experienced thousands of years of righteous existence in the Americas before suffering such indignities you cite with the arrival of the diseased Europeans.

I stand corrected-- since the Black African set enslaved foot on this continent.

[ZNOP]

Honestly Jean killed a planet... assuming it was as full as earth, over 7 billion killed... people love her... she was "possessed" was a retcon... the original story was she did it... we gave her a pass...

No... Jean was driven insane (not possessed) mainly by Mastermind (Jason Wyngarde) who was helped/backed by a most willing accomplice, The White Queen (Emma Frost). If not for greed, power and jealousy that story would have turned out differently. (If you set someone on fire and that person runs into a building full of unsuspecting men, women, and children trapping and killing all inside -- who's the criminal here?)

[finfangfool]

This is why Blue Marvel fans should shut up and enjoy his few appearances every year. He gets popular enough and ends up on an Avengers book and he'll likely go Sentry and end up being the villain of a summer "Event". There are worse things than obscurity.

[BigDtown]

Hey guys, I don't think this is how it goes at all. The apology should come from the writers and editorial. I haven't seen a hero this disgraced in about a decade (Green Lantern going nuts maybe). But let's really be serious for a moment. They write the stories, but we condemn or exonerate the charterers. Honestly Jean killed a planet... assuming it was as full as earth, over 7 billion killed... people love her... she was "possessed" was a retcon... the original story was she did it... we gave her a pass... Wanda committed and unique form of genocide because she has family issues and a large amount of self-hate... She was "possessed"... she gets a pass from fans... Cable full potential is released and he takes control of the world and forces peace on it (Cable & Deadpool) and later tries to take out the Avengers who defend the planet to save Hope... he gets resurrected and a pass... we gave it to him. If we asked for heads and really were pissed as a whole, they would make them pay. But those three characters sell more than Bishop, so he stays bad. It blows, but it is fact. There are no cool black male X-men now... hell I don' think there are any...Synch dead, Maggot dead, Tag dead, Prodigy depowered and pretty irrelevant, Shola Inkosi depowered and abandoned, Bishop insane and disgraced... well I think that is pretty much everyone... We can claim Sunspot here if we include Afro-Latino... Unless they create a street talking black male mutant with a bald head... it is not happening... It sucks, but apparently books regularly featuring a black guy that is not Luke Cage, bald, a Sam Jackson knock-off or a sidekick will not make it in the X-world and in many instances Marvel... It is a damn shame. Hot black women? You get a bunch of them.

Oh, and Wolverine owes no one an apology... he does what he wants when he wants... his murderous hypocrisy is longstanding.

Yes.

So have many X-Men. I don't want to get that deep but I've never seen the same vitriol hurled at Bishop get hurled at Jean, Magneto, Emma. Scale is always given as the reason Bishop gets dumped on but Magneto has a pretty high kill count and has never paid for it in anyway and Emma did some horribly shady and disgusting things that she also has never paid for. But what is more is that with those others people were open to redemption. Bishop not so much.

Again, yes. Jean and Magneto got their mass murders retconned and we were fine with it, but people don't even want Bishop to get a retcon.

[mikekerrIII]

I was writing of Bishop's actions in the Marvel mini-series event entitled: Civil war. Written by Mark Millar, illustrated by Steve McNiven. That is the book I assumed you were writing about, you didn't clarify otherwise until I commented on it. I seriously doubt anyone would see "CW" on a marvel comics forum and automatically assume: "198."

In the CW x-men series Bishop was trying to return prisoners to the camp that was established before the CW started, why would anyone assume that that Camp had anything to do with the SHRA? Why assume that even if the only books you read were the CW X-men? Bishops actions in the CW books had nothing to do with the SHRA

[ZNOP]

Again, yes. Jean and Magneto got their mass murders retconned and we were fine with it, but people don't even want Bishop to get a retcon.

First off... The Shi'ar attacked her Phoenix/Jean Grey first -- unprovoked at that. Second... Absolutely no one (at least those that I know) believes that it wasn't in essence Jean Grey -- a provoked Jean Grey who consummed the D'Bari star.

[otipep_90]

Again, yes. Jean and Magneto got their mass murders retconned and we were fine with it, but people don't even want Bishop to get a retcon.

Retconning Bishop's actions would only lead to a poor story that would rob him of oppurtunities for a proper redemption story. When was the last time we had one of those? Those retcons destroyed the original stories and the only thing AvX has done right is try to cement the retcon that retcon away Jean's role as the Phoenix in the original Drak Pheonix Saga. Something that was do in the Inferno cross over but many poeple seem to have forgotten. As for Xorn/Magneto hopefully someone comes up with a clear way to merge the original story with the retcon in the future. But lets refrain from retconning stories that are still fresh off the oven. Who knows what AvX has instore for Hope and what that means for Bishop's return and redemption. He may fine a spot on the Avengers or in Logan's X-Force. T he x-offices have said more than one writer had asked for him.

I agree with those that say its time for Bishop's return now that Hope's story arc is closing. Maybe Sage should be besides him...

[darknessatnoon]

Why do people keep wanting to weigh Sage down with the enormous albatross that is Bishop? They played chess once. She wasn't even into it.

[remydat]

no it doesn't. if Hope does something devastating to the world, it won't be because of nurture. it will be because the Phoenix Force overwhelmed her. that's totally nature. if Cable wasn't able to instill in her the difference between right and wrong, then whose fault is it?

And you know this how? Bishop never mentioned the PF so when he said as a 10 year old that he wanted Hope dead as a baby he had no clue it was the PF. When he tried to kill her during MC, he had not clue it was the PF. So sorry, he concluded that a baby was inherently evil and needed to die. If he thought nurture could make her good then he would not have tried to kill her as a baby. Also, we still don't know if Hope killing millions has anything to do with the PF or AvX. This whole thing could pass and then Hope just goes apeshit because she is tired of everyone trying to kill or manipulate her.

And we are not talking about right or wrong. We are talking about a kid forced by Bishop to live a life in constant fear. By all rights she should be suffering PTSD from living a life in constant fear mainly because of Bishop. She could easily reach a breaking point and go apeshit.

[remydat]

Jean did cause an entire species to become extinct and Emma was complicit in that act. So I'd say they are close. And Magneto is a global terrorist and murderer of X-Men. I'm not saying don't hate Bishop for what he did. It's just I've noticed with Bishop no one wants him redeemed. He's either a total lost cause and needs to stay a villain or needs a horrible death as justice. While other redeemed X-Men are welcomed as 'cool' and 'edgy'

Jean was mindfucked by the PF and HC. Emma was certainly complicit but she did not mindfuck Jean with the intention of killing an entire species. Bishop knowingly killed 9 billion people. It just not comparable. Notice I did not mention Mags because his being an X-man if bullshit. Even then though his kill count is still about 8,980,000,000 short of Bishop's.

And plenty of people want Bishop redeemed. Just not this Bishop. If all he did was try and kill a baby you could make an argument. The best we can Hope for is another Bishop to come back. One with maybe the same history but who ultimate decides not to kill Hope or better yet comes back to try and help her.

[Dr. Sonic]

And you know this how? Bishop never mentioned the PF so when he said as a 10 year old that he wanted Hope dead as a baby he had no clue it was the PF. When he tried to kill her during MC, he had not clue it was the PF. So sorry, he concluded that a baby was inherently evil and needed to die. If he thought nurture could make her good then he would not have tried to kill her as a baby. Also, we still don't know if Hope killing millions has anything to do with the PF or AvX. This whole thing could pass and then Hope just goes apeshit because she is tired of everyone trying to kill or manipulate her.
And we are not talking about right or wrong. We are talking about a kid forced by Bishop to live a life in constant fear. By all rights she should be suffering PTSD from living a life in constant fear mainly because of Bishop. She could easily reach a breaking point and go apeshit.

Bishop never specifically said what it was Hope did that brought about the terrible times he alluded to - it was left open-ended to facilitate future plot development. He could have been referring to something having to do with the Phoenix Force. Or perhaps it is the fact that Hope is at the center of the X-Men / Avengers War that ultimately led him to believe she needed to be eliminated. Maybe AvX proves to be the key event that leads to the full-fledged mutant persecution entailed in Bishop's past (or future, depending on how you look at it).
Regardless, Bishop's position is untenable - you can't justify killing a thousand people to save a million, nor a million to save a billion; there is no manifestation of morality that can bend around the matter...

That said, i still like Bishop and hope the writers can come up with some means of bringing him back as a good guy.

[remydat]

Again, yes. Jean and Magneto got their mass murders retconned and we were fine with it, but people don't even want Bishop to get a retcon.

There was a whole thread dedicated to redeeming Bishop (the character not 1191 Bishop). I know I started it.

[remydat]

Bishop never specifically said what it was Hope did that brought about the terrible times he alluded to - it was left open-ended to facilitate future plot development. He could have been referring to something having to do with the Phoenix Force. Or perhaps it is the fact that Hope is at the center of the X-Men / Avengers War that ultimately led him to believe she needed to be eliminated. Maybe AvX proves to be the key event that leads to the full-fledged mutant persecution entailed in Bishop's past (or future, depending on how you look at it).
Regardless, Bishop's position is untenable - you can't justify killing a thousand people to save a million, nor a million to save a billion; there is no manifestation of morality that can bend around the matter...

That said, i still like Bishop and hope the writers can come up with some means of bringing him back as a good guy.

I am not disputing the possibility that is the event Bishop was referencing. I was disputing the posting assuming that it has to be this event or related to the PF. As you correctly pointed out, it was left open but as it stands now Bishop never mentioned the PF.