Is it time for another wonder woman related book

[blackphoenix]

Well, it's been like that for almost two years; but I do think she was more a part of the DC universe in the Simone run and before. Power Girl, Black Canary, Green Lanterns, and other DC heroes were fairly regular presences. She fought quite a few gods and demons --- I'm tired of gods and demons --- but she fought villains too.

Amen. Enough with the Greek gods already!

I would be all for a second Wonder Woman book. It could either focus on Donna Troy, or be a "Wonder Woman Family/Sensation Comics" type book that explores Wonder Woman in various times and eras.It could visit the "mod" Diana Prince era, the Wonder Family days, the Golden Age, etc. I miss the goofy old stories where Diana used to hop in the Invisible Plane and fly off to Pluto or wrestle Gorilla Women from Goltar or somesuch: this could be a book for fans like me.

[slvn]

And she herself is physically removed from the DC universe, and to the extent that the gods are recurring villains, will not be a part of the shared universe for much of the time. She's been marginalized by design.

We didn't know it at the time, but there was a figure from Greek mythology in every issue of the New 52. Her name is Pandora. And she's central to the next DCU-wide event. So I'm not buying that connections to Greek mythology may Wonder Woman and her mythos marginal to the DCU.

Azzarello's current arc is very separate from the main DCu, I agree. But once it's done, there's no reason why, without departing from the coninuity Azz has established, Steve Trevor and Hermes or Lennox can't meet and give each other the stink eye; no reason why Eros or Strife can't try to trifle with Steve and Diana's friendship/relationship; no reason why Madame Xanadu can't make a deal with Hades or Apollo; no reason why Power Girl and Huntress can't track the Earth 2 invader to London and meet up with Wonder Woman there; no reason why the Hephaestoi can't provide ARGUS with technical savvy; no reason why some Atlanteans or some immortal like the Shade can't have bad blood with the restored Amazons over one of their past booty raids; no reason why Wonder Woman, as Zeus' daughter, can't have have some reason to interact with Billy Batson, wielder of "the lightning of Zeus." Heck, there's no reason why the gang from the local heavy metal club (in #4) can't become the new Halliday Girls. There are lots of new ways for the story to branch out and intermingle with other developed and not-yet-developed parts of the new DCU.

[SteveGus]

Azzarello's current arc is very separate from the main DCu, I agree. But once it's done, there's no reason why, without departing from the coninuity Azz has established, Steve Trevor and Hermes or Lennox can't meet and give each other the stink eye; no reason why Eros or Strife can't try to trifle with Steve and Diana's friendship/relationship; no reason why Madame Xanadu can't make a deal with Hades or Apollo; no reason why Power Girl and Huntress can't track the Earth 2 invader to London and meet up with Wonder Woman there; no reason why the Hephaestoi can't provide ARGUS with technical savvy; no reason why some Atlanteans or some immortal like the Shade can't have bad blood with the restored Amazons over one of their past booty raids; no reason why Wonder Woman, as Zeus' daughter, can't have have some reason to interact with Billy Batson, wielder of "the lightning of Zeus." Heck, there's no reason why the gang from the local heavy metal club (in #4) can't become the new Halliday Girls. There are lots of new ways for the story to branch out and intermingle with other developed and not-yet-developed parts of the new DCU.

Editorial job one ought to be getting her out of London and into the USA.

But most of this is speculation. What we do know is that "Wonder Girl" can't be connected to Wonder Woman. Donna Troy, if reintroduced, cannot be connected to Wonder Woman. Association with Paradise Island is only a taint. Wonder Woman cannot have supporting characters that relate to her background; she can only have followers she picked up in the outside world. Since the biggest historical issue of the title is that each new writer makes her a new city and new supporting cast, and the one island of stability is no more, we can expect nothing but constant substitutions from here on out.

[slvn]

Editorial job one ought to be getting her out of London and into the USA.

Why? London may be a very strategically important locale in the DCU. Not only is it where gods come to claim a throne, but it's where shady, Pandora's Box-related supervillains meet at the end of the main story in JL 6. Being based in London make WW the woman to see for heroes visiting the UK or Europe. She still has ties to the US, having apparently having lived there when she first left PI rescuing a US colonel.

But most of this is speculation.

Of course! I might even say most of it is less than speculation, really--just possibilities. But my point is that Azz's continuity does nothing to foreclose these and many other possibilities. To state flatly that Wonder Woman is marginalized "by design" or that she CAN'T be connected to the DCU or expand her supporting cast while retaining this continuity is worse than speculation--it's assumptions presented as facts or foregone conclusions.

I haven't been following the Titans since the first couple of issues (didn't hate it, just didn't stick with it) but I'm not sure that it's true that Wonder Girl CAN'T be connected to Diana; she isn't yet, but from what I understand, there's still a lot we don't know about her artifacts and background, right? Donna Troy, it seems to me, certainly could be connected to Wonder Woman; she could even be an Amazon (one, like Diana, too young to have been tainted by participating in the thrice-centennial raids--or one who ran away from home when she learned about the raids.) Or, she could be a Titan, which would probably make her Diana's cousin.

,"
Wonder Woman cannot have supporting characters that relate to her background;

She already has three half-brothers, a nephew, and the mother of another half-sibling in her supporting cast. I would say they all "relate to her background," even if Hermes is the only one she knew before. She has a whole workshop full of newly discovered "brothers." And the Amazons are still on Paradise Island, waiting to be restored when Diana's hero's journey reaches the atonement or return phase.

Since the biggest historical issue of the title is that each new writer makes her a new city and new supporting cast, and the one island of stability is no more, we can expect nothing but constant substitutions from here on out.

This "one island of stability" has been destroyed, vacated or moved to another dimension multiple times since the seventies. It will be back again. If Azz intended to shelve them permanently, he would have given them a more permanent end than "turned to snakes."

A lot of creators--Snyder, for instance--have said very positive things about this run. Hopefully, when one of them takes it over, he or she will want to build on it. I suspect that future creators will find many potential sources of conflict left by Azzarello, and so they may not feel the need to invent so many new imperfections.

[Outside_85]

Editorial job one ought to be getting her out of London and into the USA.

What for? WW has been based in a number of US cities that provided nothing but a random background that might as well have been New York or any other major city when she actually bothered remaining within their city limits.

[shingi70]

I like Wonder Woman in London.

I don't mind Steve Trevor becoming more than Wonder Woman just proves he's a good character and the justice league books pretty much say he still loves her.

Wouldn't mind a book about another amazon hero or another Greek hero.

[SteveGus]

Why? London may be a very strategically important locale in the DCU. Not only is it where gods come to claim a throne, but it's where shady, Pandora's Box-related supervillains meet at the end of the main story in JL 6. Being based in London make WW the woman to see for heroes visiting the UK or Europe. She still has ties to the US, having apparently having lived there when she first left PI rescuing a US colonel.

First, let me ask a question. You have a bicycle. You remove the wheels, pedals, seat, gears, and chains, and discard them. You melt down the remaining metal bits for scrap. Do you still have a bicycle?

If all of this comes to pass as you describe, I think that we no longer have a Wonder Woman.

A lot of creators--Snyder, for instance--have said very positive things about this run. Hopefully, when one of them takes it over, he or she will want to build on it. I suspect that future creators will find many potential sources of conflict left by Azzarello, and so they may not feel the need to invent so many new imperfections.

A lot of creators --- Trina Robbins, for instance --- have said very negative things about this run. I'd rather see someone like Busiek on the title rather than another ex-Vertigo and Batman writer: what the book needs more than anything else right now is a change of mood and scenery.

[slvn]

First, let me ask a question. You have a bicycle. You remove the wheels, pedals, seat, gears, and chains, and discard them. You melt down the remaining metal bits for scrap. Do you still have a bicycle?

No. But in this case, the basic structure and essential moving parts--a powerful Amazon princess whose first instinct is to protect the defenseless and free the oppressed--are still there. I'm not sure what bicycle part to equate the Amazons to, but they're "in the shop"--not melted down, not dead, not irretrievably gone. And putting her in London isn't like removing parts; it's like shipping a bicycle to London.

A lot of creators --- Trina Robbins, for instance --- have said very negative things about this run.

I never said otherwise. I'm just saying that there are creators who would likely build on, rather than undo, what Azzarello has done. When DiDio has to replace Azzarello, he will probably opt for one of those creators, as he is reportedly happy with Azz's work. This may not please you, but you're the one who said that "the biggest historical issue of the title is that each new writer makes her a new city and new supporting cast." It's funny that you say that and then hope that the next writer will get her a new city and a new supporting cast.

[SteveGus]

I never said otherwise. I'm just saying that there are creators who would likely build on, rather than undo, what Azzarello has done. When DiDio has to replace Azzarello, he will probably opt for one of those creators, as he is reportedly happy with Azz's work. This may not please you, but you're the one who said that "the biggest historical issue of the title is that each new writer makes her a new city and new supporting cast." It's funny that you say that and then hope that the next writer will get her a new city and a new supporting cast.

We don't even know what she was doing living in London in any case. I'm not too worried about whether another writer will build on what Azzarello was done, if only because it seems that writer will be handed a blank slate: a character without a home, without a supporting cast, without a place in the world. Zola and Lennox are hardly replacements for Paradise Island or even for Steve Trevor. They are characters introduced as plot elements for this arc: at some point, years from now, this arc will finally be over and it will be time to move on.

My one hope is that this ends with the entire Greek pantheon killed off or banished or otherwise removed for a good long time.

[slvn]

We don't even know what she was doing living in London in any case.

Well, we know she was clubbing and enjoying tomatoes for breakfast at outdoor cafes. It's a start.

Oh, you mean mission-wise? OK, but must we always be so serious?

And if London is a blank slate, why should editorial job #1 be getting her out of London?

Zola and Lennox are hardly replacements for Paradise Island or even for Steve Trevor.

No, more like additions. Paradise Island and Steve Trevor are still out there for any WW writer who wants to use them; nothing about Azz's run would have to be retconned for that to happen. The Amazons would just have to be turned back to normal, which will probably happen before Azzarello's run is over anyway, in my opinion.

They are characters introduced as plot elements for this arc

You could have said something similar about Etta Candy when she first appeared, but she kept reappearing. So will Lennox, Zola, and the revamped gods, IF future writers want to use them. We'll see.

My one hope is that this ends with the entire Greek pantheon killed off or banished or otherwise removed for a good long time.

Sounds like a "derogatory modification" to me. Let's see some respect for Marston's moral rights! I take it that you're not opposed to removing all long-standing aspects of Wonder Woman's story--just the ones you don't like. Which is OK--it just makes you like everyone else.

[SteveGus]

And if London is a blank slate, why should editorial job #1 be getting her out of London?

Wonder Woman is an American superheroine.

The Amazons would just have to be turned back to normal, which will probably happen before Azzarello's run is over anyway, in my opinion.

I doubt that. The point of the exercise appears to be that they aren't coming back, make it so that no later writer wants them back, and prevent more characters from arising out of the setting.

I take it that you're not opposed to removing all long-standing aspects of Wonder Woman's story--just the ones you don't like. Which is OK--it just makes you like everyone else.

Let me put it this way. A writer who wants to make Apollo or Aphrodite a recurring supervillain faces a fight that's even more of an uphill battle than the designer who wants to make Wonder Woman's boots something other than red. People know Apollo. He's the god of the sun, of poetry, and of healing. He's not a convincing supervillain. Gods have other issues as supervillains: their powersets tend to be undefined, and to the extent that you turn them into supervillains with clearly defined abilities, they stop being gods.

[Nyssane]

I would kill for a lighter book, a Sensation Comics where Diana beats up Mouse Man and jokes with Etta Candy and has dates with Steve Trevor.

[slvn]

Wonder Woman is an American superheroine.

Is that what her passport says? She's from Paradise Island--which, as far as I know, is outside the jurisdiction of the United States. She came to America, bringing Steve Trevor home--even in this continuity, according to JL. For all I know, she may even have been granted American citizenship during the five-year gap. But there's nothing to stop an emigrant from deciding to go and live abroad.

I doubt that. The point of the exercise appears to be that they aren't coming back

Then why not kill them? And why bring new revelations about their past, causing many readers to want to hear their side and/or see Diana confront them?

[and to] make it so that no later writer wants them back

Then why give them a storyline that stirs enough interest, positive and negative, to fuel a hundred-page thread on htis forum? Obviously, future writers will know that bringing back the Amazons (if Azz has not already done so) would please many readers and certainly give them something to talk about.

and prevent more characters from arising out of the setting.

Then why create new characters--the male Amazons--who arise out of the setting (or, well, at least out of the characters)?

To me, the point of the exercise seems to be to isolate Diana from everything familiar and comforting, and even strip away what she thought she knew about her past and her people, and cause her to descend into the abyss, and then let her be reborn and make a heroic return. It's the hero's journey. And in this case the phases of atonement and return nearly require that she eventually confront her mother and her people. Azz has even said in an interview that she's going to need to deal with this stuff; I think "dealing" is likely to involve confronting and reconciling and reforming the Amazons.

People know Apollo. He's the god of the sun, of poetry, and of healing. He's not a convincing supervillain.

Tell that to Daphne. Oh wait, you can't--she had to have her father turn her into a tree to stop Apollo from raping her. I think Apollo, like most of the gods, had his share of capricious, amoral or evil or just plain frightening acts. Moreover, I don't think it's all that surprising for a god of sun and prophecy to burn up his oracles, or for a son of a Greek god-king to want to take his father's throne by any means necessary (a family tradition). But the fact that we do have a a shiny-happy picture of him just makes the danger he poses more horrifying, which is a good thing in a run that has horror elements. (Mars wasn't as cacklingly evil as Marston portrayed him, either, but that was OK.)

Gods have other issues as supervillains: their powersets tend to be undefined, and to the extent that you turn them into supervillains with clearly defined abilities, they stop being gods.

Azzarello doesn't seem intent on defining their powersets with any specificity, and that's OK with me. I realize that you might feel that supervillains need well-defined powersets, and I even agree with you that defining their powers too clearly might take them away from beings gods--but Marston thought it was fine to use Mars and his "children" as villains. You're saying that the gods should be eliminated from Wonder Woman comics--aren't you?Even if that is a response to their having been misused, you're still proposing the elimination of an element of the comic that goes back to Wonder Woman's first appearances. Thus, it seems to me that you're protective of the original author's "moral rights" only with regard to aspects of the story that you care about.

[Outside_85]

Wonder Woman is an American superheroine.

She's a princess from Paradise Island and has even represented it as a diplomat, recon the only thing American about her was 2 the colors on her old costume. Actually, only truly patriotic superheroes, like Captain America, should be called American Hero or Heroine.

I doubt that. The point of the exercise appears to be that they aren't coming back, make it so that no later writer wants them back, and prevent more characters from arising out of the setting.

Didn't WML start out by making the entire Island vanish into thin air at the start of his run, only for it to return some 30-40 issues later?

Let me put it this way. A writer who wants to make Apollo or Aphrodite a recurring supervillain faces a fight that's even more of an uphill battle than the designer who wants to make Wonder Woman's boots something other than red. People know Apollo. He's the god of the sun, of poetry, and of healing. He's not a convincing supervillain. Gods have other issues as supervillains: their powersets tend to be undefined, and to the extent that you turn them into supervillains with clearly defined abilities, they stop being gods.

A recurring theme of greek lore was how terminally stupid it was to let hubris get the better of you and how quick the Gods were to react to it and insults directed at them. Apollo was no exception, like he had the satyr Marsyas skinned alive after it had challenged him to a flute contests, which it lost. King Midas also suffered this kind of thing when he alone thought his good friend Pan played the flute better than Apollo...so he had his ears turned into those of a donkey.
It's probably a flaw of previous writers to limit the Greeks potential to be villains to Ares and occasionally Hades, when all of them could be as bad as they if they were provided an excuse to get angry.

[galactica]

I hope there is a second WW title with a different tone from the Azz/Chiang title. I'm loving what those guys are doing but I always like for books about different characters to have different tones or explore different aspects of the character.