Have Marvel comics changed for the better or worse?

[vh4ever]

That might be some what true but most people just complain to complain and them sucking is a matter of opinion and not fact because if the suck the way people say they do why are they still the number 1 comic company. Sure i say believe something at Marvel need to change but what people say Marvel is guilty of look close and most of the industry is. As one fan once posted here Marvel is a victim of own success they spoiled their fans so that now everything has be done a certain way or they are not happy.

There's no accounting for taste anymore in pop culture, look at the waste land that TV and movies have become, music's been DOA since 1998, comics are no different. It's only relevant to its niche audience and all but forgotten by mainstream media except for attention grabbing headlines like killing off Superman or Captain America. Moments in time.

[Umbra]

So the MRA, the MRD, Operation zero tolerance, letting Osborn drive the mutants to Utopia, and a complete lack of cotrol of it's own operations are not acts of an evil government? If genocide, statutory bigotry and death squads operating with government authority are not the signs of an evil movement what is?

Can you show me one sane senior military officer in the MU? Do you understand that Gaunllet could not have been a more insulting portrait of an malignantly incompetent buffoon of an NCO if they had hired experts to create one? I don't think it the porrtail was hate driven it just showed societal perceptions and ignorance.
If it was a rarity I could by the faction bit, but over the Years it has become the Norm, And if it was just rogue factions then Hill, HandCooper, Gyrich and company would not continualy be employed or re-employed. things like Gamma force could not be pulled off by a faction and Zero Tolerance had presidential authorization to round up the mutants. They have overused that rogue faction BS so much that it has become unbelievable that it is simply rogue factions.

There is a saying Once is an accident, twice is a coincidence and the third time is enemy action, the Mu government is closer to it;s three hundredth time that it's third

It look like Wacker's straw-man did work since the topic was originally about why the editors let Cap be turned into a Jack Bauer wannabe

It's Fiction. All fantasy. Lol...I like the political stuff. So its a matter of taste. I'm waiting for all the MU governments to get tired of all superpowers, including heroes and try to take them out. I liked Dark Reign, I wished Marvel had the guts to stick with it and push the envelop.

I agree with a lot of things in this thread. But this one? Nah...

[SubjectDelta]

Agreed. This is a very serious issue. i mean there's upwards of NINE people complaining on a message board. If you extrapolate that to the general population...it's, like, TEN!

Something must be done. How long can Marvel last what with it's successful movies and being the #1 comic book publisher? If they just listened more intently to the internet who knows how far they could fall!?!?!

SW

Didnt dc clean you alls clocks fot a couple of months in a shrinking industry where you all cant seem to get new readers no matter how much you break stories/characters down barney style? If you can tell me no in a way that isnt a sarcastic deflection tjen that will actually be a huge relief.

[timeismoney]

There's no accounting for taste anymore in pop culture, look at the waste land that TV and movies have become, music's been DOA since 1998, comics are no different. It's only relevant to its niche audience and all but forgotten by mainstream media except for attention grabbing headlines like killing off Superman or Captain America. Moments in time.

But the thing that comic fans don't want to except things change i am not saying rather it is good or bad that is a choice for one to make on their own. Which most has, my point is their is no use in complaining about. Hell the only thing in my opinion that has got better over time is the gaming industry, and it still has things people complain about Call of Duty but it still sale 16 to 20 million.

[timeismoney]

Didnt dc clean you alls clocks fot a couple of months in a shrinking industry where you all cant seem to get new readers no matter how much you break stories/characters down barney style? If you can tell me no in a way that isnt a sarcastic deflection tjen that will actually be a huge relief.

To be fair their New 52 did what it was suppose to and that is beat Marvel but by all means it didn't put a dent in Marvel market share.

[Imraith Nimphais]

Didnt dc clean you alls clocks fot a couple of months in a shrinking industry where you all cant seem to get new readers no matter how much you break stories/characters down barney style? If you can tell me no in a way that isnt a sarcastic deflection tjen that will actually be a huge relief.

Not to make this a DC v M debate, ...Sure, one comic sells over one hundred thousand copies, but when you have only two or three titles in the top ten, I do not see that as big a "success" as one would think.
And unless they are going to be releasing a "Marvel" movie once a month I do not see the relevance of bringing the overwhelming success of one film into this conversation. We are discussing comic books...the written, drawn, coloured and inked end product in hand.

While the movie part of the business seems to be on the upswing...the trade publication seems to be failing on several different levels.

[Tazirai]

Characterization is up to the writer. It's not Marvel's problem, it's the writers' problem.

Problem with this is Marvel had tighter control over their Characters back then. So ALL writers were on the same page with a Characters. The Reason we have Such Variation in Say Psylocke is because writers AND editors got lazy, not to mention the artists.
Characterization of Psylocke returned in X-Force, but look at her anywhere all and it's all ass shots all the time with her. Same with Wolverine, and all these 'OMEGAS' running around smacks of fanboyism. It's like HEY lets make EVERYBODY an OMEGA, that way we can focus less on the character. Hopefully Joss Whedon did that. One of my Favorite marvel movie Characters is Phil Coulton.. The actor rocked, his lines WELL delivered and for such a calm fellow, he had charisma. That's been missin gfrom the books for awhile.

[SubjectDelta]

To be fair their New 52 did what it was suppose to and that is beat Marvel but by all means it didn't put a dent in Marvel market share.

The market share seems like a way of mitigating.dc's success.

Not that i am a fan of the (not) new 52, but it seemed like whacker was getting carried away with the hype.

I keep seeing you talk about how things have to change and i dont think that is necessarily true, at least not the aspects of characters that made them popular. All these years later twinkies taste the same and James bond is a smooth, swath, sophisticated womanizer drinking martinis shaken not stirred.

[vh4ever]

But the thing that comic fans don't want to except things change i am not saying rather it is good or bad that is a choice for one to make on their own. Which most has, my point is their is no use in complaining about. Hell the only thing in my opinion that has got better over time is the gaming industry, and it still has things people complain about Call of Duty but it still sale 16 to 20 million.

I was a reader of DC Comics going back to 1974. Brave and the Bold, Legion of Superheroes, Justice League and my 1-2 punch of Superman and Batman and their various companion titles. Had been loyal to the brand up until the Blackest Night- Final Crisis debacle of 2009-2010, through thick and thin. It was then that I realized that with the pending trifecta of Johns-Lee-Didio subverting the line to suit their Silver Age tastes and status quo, I decided then and there to wrap up my runs and pull the plug on DC. Haven't been back, don't read the solicits. Made $15,000 on EBay selling off my DC catalog, something I thought I would NEVER do. It's time to move on. I love comics, but moving away from DC by voting with my wallet and/ or making money off of my labor of love wasn't hard at all.

I love being called ignorant by 'professionals' like Wacker for being a smart consumer. DC doesn't care either, they're banking on their Nu52 working because the alternative is unthinkable, so the blinders are on, jobs ARE at stake after all, real tangible ones, so sales had better be good. To an extent it has worked, which is great for comics in general. I'm not part of it. My choice. Just like limiting my Marvel purchases to the few that I still partake of and ignoring the rest is my choice. Guys like Wacker just make it easier to reinforce that idea. Taking my $$ elsewhere has revitalized my fondness for the hobby believe it or not.

[skullboy]

I agree with what some of you have said. That Marvel has sacrificed both their characters and their previous older fans to make more loot and to bring in younger readers. They have relied too much on shock value, character deaths, and making their universe very disfunctional and depressing i.e. Civil War and AVX. I'm still very effected by the events of Clone Saga from that day and destroyed a great comic character. And now, Marvelites love the Scarlet Spider whether it's Ben Reilly or Kaine, go figure. I'm just not one who turns the other cheek or become a sheep to any risks they have taken to despite years of supporting them. What's also messed up is that if you say anything discouraging towards Marvel or their movies, the fans start getting defensive, calling names, or even make death threats especially to anyone who speaks ill of the Avengers movie. It's just silly and unclassy. It just makes being a fanboy or fangirl not so fun anymore and starts to get a bad rep. I've become less of a comic fan these days especially since the DC reboot. Any Marvel and DC books I buy anymore are old back issues of the bygone eras that I've enjoyed when the companies had more resepect for their characters and their fans to a certain extent. This is the world we live in but that doesn't mean we have to like it.

[RDMacQ]

It's Fiction. All fantasy. Lol...I like the political stuff. So its a matter of taste. I'm waiting for all the MU governments to get tired of all superpowers, including heroes and try to take them out. I liked Dark Reign, I wished Marvel had the guts to stick with it and push the envelop.

I agree with a lot of things in this thread. But this one? Nah...

I'm kind of weary about "political" issues being introduced into comics for a few reasons. One is that there usually is no real world parallel to the situation that the writers are addressing. I don't really get where the creator is coming from if they criticize the superheroes not doing "more" to solve the world's problems when superheroes don't exist in real life. Two, the companies are hardly likely to allow their heroes to come down one way or another on a particular issue, unless it's really, REALLY important or if there is enough support in the general public. Marvel for the longest time had a "No Gays" policy in their comic books and that had to be worked around by several writers. Kind of a weird stance for a company to make when one of their major properties routinely argues for tolerance and acceptance for a maligned minority, and one that WOULD be a natural parallel to their major property. And three, when creator's DO get "political," it's rarely thoughtful or subtle. It's heavy handed "commentary" that doesn't really address the full problems of the issue, and is more just "Everyone who disagrees with me are wrong."

Not that I don't think that there can't be though provoking issues brought up in comics. Just that it's better to be handled with more thought and intelligence than we usually get.

[mikekerrIII]

So what if Cap use torturer whatever to save lives.

That is always the excuse used in comics and the real world and only in comics, and other fiction, does it work.

I think that torture is one place where a clear line can be drawn. If you torture people you are scum.

[mikekerrIII]

I'm careful not to demean anyone. But I don't take people with pretend business degrees very seriously either.

SW

That is simply a lie.

[vh4ever]

I'm kind of weary about "political" issues being introduced into comics for a few reasons. One is that there usually is no real world parallel to the situation that the writers are addressing. I don't really get where the creator is coming from if they criticize the superheroes not doing "more" to solve the world's problems when superheroes don't exist in real life. Two, the companies are hardly likely to allow their heroes to come down one way or another on a particular issue, unless it's really, REALLY important or if there is enough support in the general public. Marvel for the longest time had a "No Gays" policy in their comic books and that had to be worked around by several writers. Kind of a weird stance for a company to make when one of their major properties routinely argues for tolerance and acceptance for a maligned minority, and one that WOULD be a natural parallel to their major property. And three, when creator's DO get "political," it's rarely thoughtful or subtle. It's heavy handed "commentary" that doesn't really address the full problems of the issue, and is more just "Everyone who disagrees with me are wrong."

Not that I don't think that there can't be though provoking issues brought up in comics. Just that it's better to be handled with more thought and intelligence than we usually get.

Denny O'Neill's Green Lantern/ Green Arrow was by no means a high water mark from back in the day.

[tolworthy]

That is always the excuse used in comics and the real world and only in comics, and other fiction, does it work.

I think that torture is one place where a clear line can be drawn. If you torture people you are scum.

Well said. The whole point of Captain America used to be his high standards. Captain America stood for inspiration: that's why he carries a shield and not a gun. It's why he could win despite not having superhuman strength. He knew that the real war was for hearts and minds. Once you compromise with torture you have lost the war.