Have Marvel comics changed for the better or worse?

[Mikey Brown]

Well, storylines in regular comics get interrupted for a story people may not have any interest in. Directions could be changed as a result despite fans being satisfied with the direction the comic was going in regardless. The events themselves may not have the best story, so having six months of your comic devoted to a story that's not all that great might be less than appealing. That sort of thing.

I agree to a point. These characters and the universe are shared. A shared universe is a big part of why some fans enjoy Marvel and DC so much.

Take, for example, the New Avengers and the Avengers franchise. That's a series I think kind of got hijacked by the event train starting with Civil War, and it affected the titles as a result. It all became about bridging to the next event, and not much time was spent on character interaction. I liked some of what we got, but kind of felt that we were missing out on what we could have got if the book was more focused on telling it's own story and not setting things up for the next big blockbuster.

Or, look at it this way. Blockbuster movies get a lot of flack. For poor quality, poor storytelling, poor characterization. People still go to SEE them, but they wish they were a little bit better. They're not expecting much, but don't want to be treated like idiots. There's a difference between something like- say- Transformer: Dark of the Moon and The Avengers. When things are like The Avengers, people love it. Sure, it's not deep, introspective art. But it's a good way to spend the time. When things are like Dark of the Moon, not so much. It's not bad, but wish the experience was a little more and you kind of feel like the filmmakers are talking down to you and playing to the least common denominator.

That make sense?

But, as you've pointed out, blockbusters or events don't always have to be bad. I enjoyed House of M, Civil War, Final Crisis, Spider-Island, Darkest Night and a few others, and blockbuster movies don't always have to suck either, as you pointed out with the Avengers. In the end, if it's a good story then it's a good story, event or not.

[Hulk_Is]

Well, storylines in regular comics get interrupted for a story people may not have any interest in. Directions could be changed as a result despite fans being satisfied with the direction the comic was going in regardless. The events themselves may not have the best story, so having six months of your comic devoted to a story that's not all that great might be less than appealing. That sort of thing.

Take, for example, the New Avengers and the Avengers franchise. That's a series I think kind of got hijacked by the event train starting with Civil War, and it affected the titles as a result. It all became about bridging to the next event, and not much time was spent on character interaction. I liked some of what we got, but kind of felt that we were missing out on what we could have got if the book was more focused on telling it's own story and not setting things up for the next big blockbuster.

Or, look at it this way. Blockbuster movies get a lot of flack. For poor quality, poor storytelling, poor characterization. People still go to SEE them, but they wish they were a little bit better. They're not expecting much, but don't want to be treated like idiots. There's a difference between something like- say- Transformer: Dark of the Moon and The Avengers. When things are like The Avengers, people love it. Sure, it's not deep, introspective art. But it's a good way to spend the time. When things are like Dark of the Moon, not so much. It's not bad, but wish the experience was a little more and you kind of feel like the filmmakers are talking down to you and playing to the least common denominator.

That make sense?

Hm. Thanks for shedding some light.

I think this is where you can spot the creator followers from Marvel comics fans. Since the MU is a shared universe the characters stories and events are going to crossover from time to time and you're not going to get many stories that are just being told on their lonesome. Creator followers tend to want to follow their favorite creators as if they were working on a novel. But, that's not what they writing.

Hopefully, creator followers will learn someday that the Marvel universe is a unique one with a rich story that features hundreds of characters and cannot be told in one mere book.

[theflyingfrogunderdog]

I am thinking they went way down hill. I have not returned to read them again since that Red hulk story from just the most bad idea ever to grace the face of comics. How bad you say? well when characters stop acting like hero's and more like villains I wonder and when powers mean nothing to the creators of the story you have to wonder just what got into the writers minds.
Story after story a charactor is not only changed but does something you scratch your head and think. thats not the hero I know who is this?

I can say have they killed the current idea that is the marvel engine? Yes Yes and Hell yes. Can it be brought back? I am waiting on word of that and hoping they find out what that word hero means again.

Bring back the hero , bring back the world where people remember what a hero stands for. I shake my head at whats said on the boards I begin to wonder if anybody knows any more what a hero is? I think the writers have forgotten and that is really sad.

Jackson, you shined a light on the giant pink elephant in the room that most everyone knows is there, but have gotten too used too, to gripe about anymore. Traditional heroism is seen as passe, today. People think that it's not realistic for heroes to live by a moral code, because situations will demand acting outside the box aka compromising one's moral code for the greater good...the old "the ends justifies the means" sort of logic. That's Wolverine...that's NOT Captain America. But who cares, right? Today, writers and editors are all too loose with their characterization of these iconic, classic characters. There is no respect for the character anymore. The long established histories of these characters, are being thrown out the window, in favor of out of character writing being passed off as "change" to ensure that marvel's characters aren't boring after so many years of acting the same way. Well, if changing the fundamental aspects of a character is change that people think is good for keeping things interesting and not getting stale, then what do we have? We have unprofessionalism being passed off as progressive change, when nothing could be further from the truth. Like me, you get it! You know those Marvel characters you grew up with, and you know out of character writing when you see it. The hero is the nexus of characterization. Take away the hero, and what do you have? Bad comics, that's what. At what point do people stop defending bad writing, and stop saying "that's just your opinion", and start acknowledging that giant pink elephant in the room. Doing the right thing no matter what, is a thing of the past. It's all about a good read at the expense of a character's integrity, in the stories that people call good reads. No, a good read is not out of character writing that people can't even see is outside the realm of acceptable mischaracterization. Editors don't do their jobs anymore, nor do i think they even know how to do their jobs. And the writers are on another page of their own making, not respecting the rich history...decades of characterization that had come before they got their mitts on our beloved Marvel characters. I want my Marvel back! How about you, true believers? The word "characterization" doesn't mean what it used to. Like with today's music, the standard has been lowered a lot, but people will still defend it as being "artistic" and you just can't appreciate it.

People say Hickman is a very good Fantastic Four writer. What i read, had Reed Richards strangely at a loss for words when exploring the Mole Man's underground realm. Really? Is Reed Richards the type to ever be at a loss for words when on a journey through another world? No, Reed analyzes and comments in those pesky word balloons with exposition that seems to be a lost art these days. And what's worse, people don't even mind the lack of dialogue, that takes away from proper characterization. The Reed Richards i know, is analytical and talkative, not a bump on a log.

Bendis has been regarded as a very good Avengers writer, but his sparse dialogue only takes away from the amount of word balloon characterization that used to be present in Marvel comics of past decades. People may see Bendis writing through rose colored glasses, but less dialogue equals less characterization, not the other way around. It's common sense. How can less characterization truly make for good reading? People are happy with less, that's all. It doesn't mean that Bendis is a good writer, though. If he is a good writer, he doesn't write up to his potential, IMO.

Yeah, the hero has been compromised in the name of realism. Comics came of age and the hero got thrown under the bus. There are many examples, i'm sure. And over at DC, it's the same story (only bloodier). But really, comics haven't come of age. They've just become a gray mess of moral decay, where good and evil don't really mean anything, in favor of different shades of gray that is passed off as realistic heroism of the modern comic book, that supposedly makes superhero comics more "mature" for a more sophisticated readership today. A few years ago, Marvel comics had a "heroic age", but i guess that was just an advertising gimmick to make people like me buy their morally decayed, heroism deficient product for a few months, while true heroism is all too often lacking, now. In reality, the heroes who kill the bad guys, would have to answer to the police like Charles Bronson in the Death Wish movies. Vigilante heroism is not heroism according to the police. Of course, if comics were TRULY mature today, they would have stories with subjects such as religion and getting fat.

[Mikey Brown]

Hm. Thanks for shedding some light.

I think this is where you can spot the creator followers from Marvel comics fans. Since the MU is a shared universe the characters stories and events are going to crossover from time to time and you're not going to get many stories that are just being told on their lonesome. Creator followers tend to want to follow their favorite creators as if they were working on a novel. But, that's not what they writing.

Hopefully, creator followers will learn someday that the Marvel universe is a unique one with a rich story that features hundreds of characters and cannot be told in one mere book.

I follow creators but I'm a fan of the characters as well. It just makes more sense to me to follow the creators I like and I'm guaranteed (well about 95% of the time) to enjoy it. As much as I like Superman, I'm not gonna read Superman by Dan Jurgens and Keith Giffen. Those creators just do not appeal to me whatsoever. But Grant Morrison does, so I'll read Action Comics. I'm not gonna pick up Detective Comics because I don't enjoy Tony Daniel writing, but I will get Batman because Scott Snyder is amazing (Capullo artwork doesn't hurt either). For Marvel examples, New Mutants by Zeb Wells was great, but I'm not a fan of DNA so I dropped it when they came along. I just started picking up the Incredible Hulk again because Jason Arron started writing, but Pak for me was hit and miss. I enjoyed Planet Hulk but the rest I found mediocre so I dropped it a few issues after World War Hulk. These characters are timeless, there's always gonna be stories I like and stories I don't like, but at least when I follow creators I know I'm gonna like it. Following characters? Not so much.

[Brannon]

Yeah right, the people that bought those comics are parents or grandparents now and their kids and grandkids didnt continue their comics hobby. Also, figure in for inflation.

Are you really trying to say that the spidey cartoons of the 90s were dark and the cause of the collapse of comics? Post 9-11 sure, but thats just the last 10 years, not the 60 years prior. People didnt want comics anymore so they stopped buying them. Period. Speculation gimmicks and trendy 'dark' comics kept industry alive but just barely. In the 1930s there werent many other options for entertainment, they cant compete with todays options.

Comics have had one foot out the door for decades, although the digital comic move has been a good attempt to stay relevant the writing has been on the wall for awhile.

The only reason comic books still exist is nostalgia and parent companies buying them for their intellectual properties.

If you somehow got from my basic premise that the Spider-Man animated series from the 90's is my main culprit, then I simply don't know what to say. That's actually a series that I thought did the character a ton of justice. If only the comics of the period could have been similar.

There were many other factors to the decline and fall of comics, but those I mentioned certainly were factors. And I fail to see how those gimmicks "barely" kept the industry alive when those said gimmicks generated massive sales in the millions of issues sold. Numbers not seen since Disney and Captain Marvel comics regularly sold 1 to 2 million copies a month in the 40's and 50's. The point was that after the dust and glitter settled, and the speculators left, the readers were faced with the grim reality that the comics were for the most part crap and there was no hope. So, yes, they left. Where I disagree with some is that "content" played a role in this as well. That is, does Civil War and House of M appeal to as wide a demo as Dark Phoenix or even Secret Wars? I just don't see how comics written only for the hardcore fan (most modern Marvel comics) can be said to have as broad appeal. I understand that writing to an audience that is no longer there is counter-intuitive, but we're right back at the point of WHY they aren't there anymore, aren't we?

I agree that comics wouldn't approach those numbers even if the best case scenario happened in the 90's, and they were still available on the newsstands. Entertainment is just too varied for kids nowadays. That being said, there does seem to be a lack of "empathy" here. The shift to specialty shops and bookstores was a good idea at first (particuarly for maintaining a healthy back issues market for fans) but in shifting the focus from the casual reader to the hardcore fan and collector, the industry doomed itself to oblivion long before it had to in my opinion. The characters themselves are bigger than ever (see Avengers movie) but the comics themselves, at least the Marvel and DC comics, are at their lowest cultural ebb. A bitter irony.

[jackson2171]

Jackson, you shined a light on the giant pink elephant in the room that most everyone knows is there, but have gotten too used too, to gripe about anymore. Traditional heroism is seen as passe, today. People think that it's not realistic for heroes to live by a moral code, because situations will demand acting outside the box aka compromising one's moral code for the greater good...the old "the ends justifies the means" sort of logic. That's Wolverine...that's NOT Captain America. But who cares, right? Today, writers and editors are all too loose with their characterization of these iconic, classic characters. There is no respect for the character anymore. The long established histories of these characters, are being thrown out the window, in favor of out of character writing being passed off as "change" to ensure that marvel's characters aren't boring after so many years of acting the same way. Well, if changing the fundamental aspects of a character is change that people think is good for keeping things interesting and not getting stale, then what do we have? We have unprofessionalism being passed off as progressive change, when nothing could be further from the truth. Like me, you get it! You know those Marvel characters you grew up with, and you know out of character writing when you see it. The hero is the nexus of characterization. Take away the hero, and what do you have? Bad comics, that's what. At what point do people stop defending bad writing, and stop saying "that's just your opinion", and start acknowledging that giant pink elephant in the room. Doing the right thing no matter what, is a thing of the past. It's all about a good read at the expense of a character's integrity, in the stories that people call good reads. No, a good read is not out of character writing that people can't even see is outside the realm of acceptable mischaracterization. Editors don't do their jobs anymore, nor do i think they even know how to do their jobs. And the writers are on another page of their own making, not respecting the rich history...decades of characterization that had come before they got their mitts on our beloved Marvel characters. I want my Marvel back! How about you, true believers? The word "characterization" doesn't mean what it used to. Like with today's music, the standard has been lowered a lot, but people will still defend it as being "artistic" and you just can't appreciate it.

People say Hickman is a very good Fantastic Four writer. What i read, had Reed Richards strangely at a loss for words when exploring the Mole Man's underground realm. Really? Is Reed Richards the type to ever be at a loss for words when on a journey through another world? No, Reed analyzes and comments in those pesky word balloons with exposition that seems to be a lost art these days. And what's worse, people don't even mind the lack of dialogue, that takes away from proper characterization. The Reed Richards i know, is analytical and talkative, not a bump on a log.

Bendis has been regarded as a very good Avengers writer, but his sparse dialogue only takes away from the amount of word balloon characterization that used to be present in Marvel comics of past decades. People may see Bendis writing through rose colored glasses, but less dialogue equals less characterization, not the other way around. It's common sense. How can less characterization truly make for good reading? People are happy with less, that's all. It doesn't mean that Bendis is a good writer, though. If he is a good writer, he doesn't write up to his potential, IMO.

Yeah, the hero has been compromised in the name of realism. Comics came of age and the hero got thrown under the bus. There are many examples, i'm sure. And over at DC, it's the same story (only bloodier). But really, comics haven't come of age. They've just become a gray mess of moral decay, where good and evil don't really mean anything, in favor of different shades of gray that is passed off as realistic heroism of the modern comic book, that supposedly makes superhero comics more "mature" for a more sophisticated readership today. A few years ago, Marvel comics had a "heroic age", but i guess that was just an advertising gimmick to make people like me buy their morally decayed, heroism deficient product for a few months, while true heroism is all too often lacking, now. In reality, the heroes who kill the bad guys, would have to answer to the police like Charles Bronson in the Death Wish movies. Vigilante heroism is not heroism according to the police. Of course, if comics were TRULY mature today, they would have stories with subjects such as religion and getting fat.

Very well put and you find that without character you have no true team deference in principles and nobody truly shines in there own right. We all have our own reasons to do what we do to take on what ever we take on and that is ok.
It really makes the hero's stand out from the villains. I like to read Dean R. Koontz he gets inside the villains and you really see they do not see the world as a villain at all just a lost soul who thinks they are right and all the rest are wrong. So that's the basses of why a hero does not kill and that's why a hero does try to never cross the line because down deep he knows that madness lay that path.
I should say I am truly speaking for myself when I put out my point of view and what I would like to see. I thought it made sense that once defined hero stood tall as one way only and that was what you was measured to if you chose the title.
Little by I blame horror movies for the bad guy slowly took over the role of the good guy. Friday the 13 and nightmare on elm where nobody wins but the villain. little by little the age of writing became only about a unhinged villain and no hero what so ever to stop it. So you get the idea that the Sherlock Holmes would never find a nemesis because people could not figure out how to produce one. That the Lex Luthers of the world over whelmed the supermen of the world and you had the idea that change could never come because nobody could see past what had come before.
I speak of many things when I say this. Be it Wonder Women and Superman or Spider man and Black Cat or Thor and Sif. Then we can even go as far as the surfer just exploring space and does he really have to fight something every book? I mean what is our target group with him anyway? The story is one that you can open and it says , Read Me travel someplace new and see what you have not seen before and for this moment we will see how this character would deal with these odds. If you change the character then you do not really answer the question do you. You have made a new character and still we ask. What about the one I wanted to know about? I gues i just want to much and people are not ready for stories that take on true bang for your buck. The ones that make you go wow , that is amazing. I would love to be amazed by the writers again.

[jackson2171]

I think in part is because so many Fan made stores are done as well. You can look up writers that share your point of view and read for free what ever you wish to see. Comics just paint the pictures and make them pretty. Today is the way of the web. A person can put out a idea and say. I do not own the character but this is how I thought it should have took place.
So you get a view into a world that takes place in the mind and you picture it as you wish it to be. No more is Mary Jane the one that says to Peter I am the only one. Because of legal issues marvel could never do or take on the roles that could make the comic something more. Stagnation sets in and the fans go away thinking I had a meal and the spice was not there it was bland. Like allergies or something you refuse to spice something because it may upset somebodies way of thinking. So instead of spice the same old same old goes on and the character never truly changes.
Forever the date of Lois lane or the love of Peter Parker
. Thats why 5 years is a good point to go , I think we can use the character just see what happens if we change around the theme. Had he done this or wore that or had a romantic interest in this person. Its what sliders the show should have done and explored but never came to be. Every story does not have to effect the other stories around it. Start making stories that stand alone that people can just pick up and read it and enjoy it.
Who cares if it effects the very foundation of marvel universe.
Look at dragon ball Z. its done and over. Because they could not go back and say.... what if he did this or joined these guys or followed this path? Change the story not the character and see what happens. Then people would talk and they would say. They found the soul of the hero. It was in us all. Who would have guessed it?

[Brannon]

I'd also like to ask Mr. Wacker if it's true that part of the reason that John Byrne refuses to work with Marvel anymore is because you remind him of an abusive gym teacher back in his Canadian school days? You might not have been around during the Hidden Years debacle, so I might very well be thinking of some other editorial presence.

[jackson2171]

I follow creators but I'm a fan of the characters as well. It just makes more sense to me to follow the creators I like and I'm guaranteed (well about 95% of the time) to enjoy it. As much as I like Superman, I'm not gonna read Superman by Dan Jurgens and Keith Giffen. Those creators just do not appeal to me whatsoever. But Grant Morrison does, so I'll read Action Comics. I'm not gonna pick up Detective Comics because I don't enjoy Tony Daniel writing, but I will get Batman because Scott Snyder is amazing (Capullo artwork doesn't hurt either). For Marvel examples, New Mutants by Zeb Wells was great, but I'm not a fan of DNA so I dropped it when they came along. I just started picking up the Incredible Hulk again because Jason Arron started writing, but Pak for me was hit and miss. I enjoyed Planet Hulk but the rest I found mediocre so I dropped it a few issues after World War Hulk. These characters are timeless, there's always gonna be stories I like and stories I don't like, but at least when I follow creators I know I'm gonna like it. Following characters? Not so much.

I follow characters I think not so much the writers. Of comics lol. I know I should follow the same idea of books as I do writers but I have been known to pick up books because of word of mouth tells me some writers is good and to pick up a book and give them a try. I have read some novel form comics and found I just cannot stand how they never break the mold. Comics are famous for this if you hint at something and sell me it show me what you sold me. Case in point when wonder women and superman got together it was still Lois whom was given the power of Wonder Women. Not why people would buy the comic.

In short the idea of a code is selling the story should be as withstanding as the very hero they represent.
Or just give me what I purchased no surprise that when you see it just makes you toss away your book never to read again.
My favorite book of all time is the Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. I think I could read this book over and over because it hits the bases of what good story telling is.
I read it before but i find myself laughing every time I reread it. I give the book away to people and say , great read and they agree.
Make stories that people buy and give away because the story is that good. Make hero's that people follow because they want to see those characters in what ever light that they choose to be drawn in.
Epic stories are the stuff where you look at something and you say how can I make this better. How can I make it stronger?
superman and the dc universe could go and take on Darkseid and his world fighting the epic battles over a 5 year time that would blow most minds.
Take that same theme and make the novel way at the very least try to show great characters doing great things. One thing I did not agree with Loki that he shows potential for a great good character. You could just see his presence saying , Not me I am not going out there to fight that. Not without drinking this tea first or what ever he drank.
In any case writers or characters or just story telling at its best its about the spice it is about the character and the chance to see something without somebody going right back to the safety net. Write back to the same old routine drink , rinse , spit. and your done.

[kelly_warrior_princess]

Jackson, you shined a light on the giant pink elephant in the room that most everyone knows is there, but have gotten too used too, to gripe about anymore. Traditional heroism is seen as passe, today. People think that it's not realistic for heroes to live by a moral code, because situations will demand acting outside the box aka compromising one's moral code for the greater good...the old "the ends justifies the means" sort of logic.

I dont think thats entirely true. I think that people pretend its true, pretend thats what they want & then when they get it (without the moralistic heroes to balance it all out), they stop purchasing. Sure i think there are some people who are exactly like that. But look at stuff like busieks run on Avengers & Thunderbolts: In a period where everyone else was going dark, he was going iconically classic.

[jackson2171]

I dont think thats entirely true. I think that people pretend its true, pretend thats what they want & then when they get it (without the moralistic heroes to balance it all out), they stop purchasing. Sure i think there are some people who are exactly like that. But look at stuff like busieks run on Avengers & Thunderbolts: In a period where everyone else was going dark, he was going iconically classic.

Just because the hero lives in a dark world more the reason for him to shine. To inspire others to do something is this not the role of a hero is this not the very idea of what a hero does try to get done. To get the people to stand up for themselves and take on the crime around them. To show that some things are worth fighting for. To use a superman quote truth justice and the American way. One person falls two steps up in their place. The hero way is to inspire the desire to combat a idea if that idea is oppression.

[stephen wacker]

I'd also like to ask Mr. Wacker if it's true that part of the reason that John Byrne refuses to work with Marvel anymore is because you remind him of an abusive gym teacher back in his Canadian school days? You might not have been around during the Hidden Years debacle, so I might very well be thinking of some other editorial presence.

Before my time.

I do love the idea that I'm a bully of some sort coming from anonymous hecklers and cranks though.

SW

[stephen wacker]

Why in the world did you guys stop talking about the Wonder Woman/Hogan's Heroes fanfic?

SW

[jackson2171]

your joking of course lol

[SubjectDelta]

By this measure of "Nyah! I know that the book that's successful now won't always be!!", comics have been failing for almost 80 years.

How have you put up with it for so long?

How is anyone still in business?!?!

SW

Your vague denial isn't really helping. I asked you a few pages back to assy our fears of the shrinking market and you couldn't do it. Hell, in your little spat with jms you admit that sales are down across the board.

Don't simply lash out when people point out the emperor isn't wearing clothes, tell us why the industry is okay.