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  1. #301
    Sad Hawkguy in the snow CyberHubbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelly_warrior_princess View Post
    I'd "trust" your writers more if they gave me a reason to: But the current skill level is demonstrably below what it was even 2 years ago.

    As for your idea that we are all complaining because its trendy, i must say neigh. We are complaining about a demonstrable negative trend because unsuprisingly that negative trend exists. Seriously, its like if i ran you over with my car & you're bleeding to death on the ground & i walked upto you and said "damn smelly hipsters, pretending to be bleeding to death in agonising pain: Its obvious you are just trying to pain a corrosive picture of my driving."

    Somtimes Stephen people are complaining about a problem, because a problem does in fact exist: Right now is one of those occassions.
    That's the problem. People are always complaining. "Right now" isn't special because two years or three ago, or five years ago, or ten years ago, some fan(s) believed the same thing, that a problem "does in fact exist". Heck, we can probably go back fifty years ago.

    If you think someone like Mark Waid on Daredevil isn't giving you a reason to trust him, that's your problem.
    I know Kevin Nichols through a guy that knows a gal. Small world!

    If nihilism didn't take some delight in destruction one might suspect nihilists were an unnaturally morbid sort.
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  2. #302
    Exudes Awesomeness oldschool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelly_warrior_princess View Post
    I'd "trust" your writers more if they gave me a reason to: But the current skill level is demonstrably below what it was even 2 years ago.

    As for your idea that we are all complaining because its trendy, i must say neigh. We are complaining about a demonstrable negative trend because unsuprisingly that negative trend exists. Seriously, its like if i ran you over with my car & you're bleeding to death on the ground & i walked upto you and said "damn smelly hipsters, pretending to be bleeding to death in agonising pain: Its obvious you are just trying to pain a corrosive picture of my driving."

    Somtimes Stephen people are complaining about a problem, because a problem does in fact exist: Right now is one of those occassions.
    Problem is the writing is, in fact, NOT "demonstrably lower" at all. Your opinion of it is one thing but there are people who think it is far better. How exactly do you factually demonstrate that it is lower (or better, for that matter)??

    Simple: you can't.
    "What oldschool said"
    The Shadow, 2008

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephen wacker View Post
    "To be fair" is almost never accurate. I'll stand by my Squirrel Girl point.

    As for your "biggest issue", I personally don't even understand it, but I'm not surprised you found some people who agreed if it was about something Marvel is doing wrong. Many of the same folks would complain if Marvel gave them free money and shelter in a storm.

    Generally I tend to trust my writers and artists more than "people" on a message board who will say anything to be seen as the most critical and want to paint a corrosive picture of people's who biggest crime is failing to entertain you..

    Happy you touched a nerve with some folks, though.

    SW
    SW
    You and brevroot have made it clear you are not interested in what fans think and I don't blame you. I have recently realized fans aren't very bright and anyone who will flock to buy stories just on hype, #1's, or a decimal deserve to be hoodwinked. But do you ever worry you are missing good advise by assuming we are wrong? Its not like you all are unassailable.

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by SubjectDelta View Post
    You and brevroot have made it clear you are not interested in what fans think and I don't blame you.
    This is demonstrably untrue. I'm here all the time reading fans' opinions. I also write several letter columns (FOR FREE!!!) and am regularly on Formspring and Twitter. Readers like yourself assume the worst when we don't do exactly as you dictate, but to any rational person Marvel is pretty interested and active in communication with our fans.

    That doesn't mean I need to bow down before every crummy idea or entitled reader who thinks he/she knows how to do the job, though. That's a lousy way to run a creative company...though some have tried.

    It's an old saying, but Marvel succeeds because we "Never give the reader what they think they want."


    Quote Originally Posted by SubjectDelta View Post
    I have recently realized fans aren't very bright and anyone who will flock to buy stories just on hype, #1's, or a decimal deserve to be hoodwinked. But do you ever worry you are missing good advise by assuming we are wrong? Its not like you all are unassailable.
    I never worry about missing good advice on a message board. I've been active on them for two decades and know how little fan rage means in the scheme of things. The fact that "Age Of Apocalypse" is now beloved is an example of online rage never really being an accurate gauge of anything. At one point, AoA was yet another series of comics that was going to "Ruin Marvel FOREVER!!!"*

    *(TM - Internet)

    And I disagree with your assumption that fans aren't "bright". They pretty clearly tell us what they really want every month.


    SW

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by WinterSoldier76 View Post
    You just called Stephen Wacker a hipster. This just explained most, if not all of Marvel editorial's problems in one simple realization.
    I can't hear you over the Black Keys album playing. Plus i'm distracted by my new Starburns.

    I'm off to Instragram this moment!

    SW

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    It's true that they used to be more good-natured fun. I believe writers are too cynical these days. I could never see anybody these days at Marvel doing something like The Infinity Gauntlet. Just great unreal action page after page.
    You don't think writers who lived through Watergate were cynical?

    HA!

    SW

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelly_warrior_princess View Post
    I'd "trust" your writers more if they gave me a reason to: But the current skill level is demonstrably below what it was even 2 years ago.

    As for your idea that we are all complaining because its trendy, i must say neigh. We are complaining about a demonstrable negative trend because unsuprisingly that negative trend exists. Seriously, its like if i ran you over with my car & you're bleeding to death on the ground & i walked upto you and said "damn smelly hipsters, pretending to be bleeding to death in agonising pain: Its obvious you are just trying to pain a corrosive picture of my driving."

    Somtimes Stephen people are complaining about a problem, because a problem does in fact exist: Right now is one of those occassions.
    How long do you give us? Will Marvel make it to the end of the year?

    SW

  8. #308
    Member Clea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephen wacker View Post
    ...It's an old saying, but Marvel succeeds because we "Never give the reader what they think they want."
    ...SW
    I don't know if you were kidding or not when you said this, but one of my favorite curses is, "May you get what you think you want."

    I can get just as irritated as the next fan when I see characters that I love end up being (IMO) mischaracterized or used poorly in stories but I always figure that the creative team is doing their best to tell an entertaining and sometimes meaningful story. If I don't like the story, I just don't buy it. Ask me why I don't like something and I'll happily tell you, but in the end I'm aware that it's just my opinion. A story that falls flat for me may work for someone else. Eventually another writer will come along and tell a different story with that character and I may like that one better. Or I may not! Never know till the next story comes along. The one thing that I'm confident of though is that the creative team (writers, artists, editors) all want to produce entertaining material that will please their audience and bring the audience back for more.

  9. #309
    The curious one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldschool View Post
    Problem is the writing is, in fact, NOT "demonstrably lower" at all. Your opinion of it is one thing but there are people who think it is far better. How exactly do you factually demonstrate that it is lower (or better, for that matter)??

    Simple: you can't.
    In my opinion AvX comes to mind. From Wolverine not telling the truth about the Pheonix to Cyclops suddenly turning into a Jim Jones character AvX has about as much sincerity of plot to it as a WWE pay per view.

    Mark_S
    Last edited by Mark_S; 05-08-2012 at 12:36 PM.

  10. #310
    The curious one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephen wacker View Post
    You don't think writers who lived through Watergate were cynical?

    HA!

    SW
    The true question is did they live through it or did they grow up as it was happening. If you were growing up in the 1970's cynism was hip. Many of the school teachers at that point were burnt out hippies who took out their anger on the students. I had one history teacher who absolutely hated America.

    Mark_S

  11. #311
    FRENCH Frank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephen wacker View Post
    You don't think writers who lived through Watergate were cynical?

    HA!

    SW
    It didn't show. They came off as fanboys that were living their dreams of writing for Marvel, continuing what Stan Lee had been doing. These guys had the decency to go past the cynicism to make sure the reader had a blast and make sure those characters were well served. Today it's like a bunch of hypsters trying to do something for a jaded minority instead of just creating fun adventures with a lot of fights. In the past when a character was dying it felt important. Now every week someone dies. Where's Night Crawler? Where's Banshee? There was zero point in their departure. The writer just needed a body.
    Last edited by Frank; 05-08-2012 at 12:41 PM.
    Legato - Frank, Calm Down Your Nerd Rage!

  12. #312
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    Stephen

    If you don't give us what we think we want then you are interrested in what we think, are you?

    You all do some mind boggling stuff such as letting the abortion that was the recent ghost rider series see print or modeling comic characters after the movies even though shows zero evidence of helping sales so when I hear you talk about crummy ideass I think you all are just as guilty of bad ideas as we are.
    Last edited by SubjectDelta; 05-08-2012 at 12:40 PM.

  13. #313
    The curious one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SubjectDelta View Post
    Yeah okay, if you don't give us what we think we want then you are interrested in what we think, are you?

    You all do some mind boggling stuff such as letting the abortion that was the recent ghost rider series see print or modeling comic characters after the movies even though shows zero evidence of helping sales so when I hear you talk about crummy ideass I think you all are just as guilty of bad ideas as we are.
    Any sentient being can have a bad idea.

    Mark_S

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    Any sentient being can have a bad idea.

    Mark_S
    That's kind of what I am getting at. To have the elite writers dismiss fan criticism as fanboy rage would be folly.

  15. #315
    Exudes Awesomeness oldschool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SubjectDelta View Post
    Stephen

    If you don't give us what we think we want then you are interrested in what we think, are you?

    You all do some mind boggling stuff such as letting the abortion that was the recent ghost rider series see print or modeling comic characters after the movies even though shows zero evidence of helping sales so when I hear you talk about crummy ideass I think you all are just as guilty of bad ideas as we are.
    At some point in your life, you may have a bad idea or two yourself. Just maybe.
    "What oldschool said"
    The Shadow, 2008

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