Have Marvel comics changed for the better or worse?

[YagamiFire]

I stoped reading Venom a couple of months ago,from what i read though this title have been cool.So i will be getting that title back in my pull list.
Scarlet Spider looks to have both goo critical and fans reviews,still i am more of a reader of just the original Spider-Man stories.And since Amazing Spider-Man have been consistently great from some time now i am just getting ASM.After watching the Avengers cartoon writen by Yost the other day i was thinking of getting comics writen by him so Scarlet Spider seem a good choice.

Defenders have been stellar as well.
I am enjoying Secret Avengers,but right now Defenders is the best super hero team comic book.
Art wise and story wise have been awesome.

Hmm I will have to look into Defenders then. I seriously recommend getting back into Venom. It is great! I never cared about Flash Thompson at all and Venom (previously my favorite character that basically got me into comics...) has been ruined for me for years...this series is dynamite however!

Odd though that I'd be saying these things considering I'm an abusive, negative, internet bully, huh? Well, at least that's how Wacker apparently sees me. Heh.

[Fringe Division]

And that gives us Prof X. as the bad guy.

Today's Charles is yesterday's Charles. Other characters just finally woke up to the fact that he is and always has been a manipulative jackass who does horrible things, sometimes to people he's supposed to care about, "for the greater good."

[YagamiFire]

Fine, let's just say "older" and "newer" fans. You seem to be implying that older fans are somehow "worth" more than newer ones.

So if a newer fan watches something on Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes...and goes out and gets the older issues its based on because they like a character and the story they saw (since A:EMH is heavily based on some classic Marvel tales) then they pick up a new issue that involves retcons of that old issue they previously picked up...well in that case, if it makes them upset is their point more or less valid than the person that read the story when it was originally published?

Or how about this, what is the cut off between "old" and "new"? The new Taskmaster series (which I enjoyed) retconned a huge portion of the old Taskmaster series (which I enjoyed)...neither is a particularly "old" story. If I am upset about the new series out-right ignoring stuff in the old story, is my irritation valid?

[Mark_S]

"Hardcore" can mean a lot of things. I've been collecting since 74 on and off and I don't consider myself hardcore. Even in terms of strict character or event continuity I'm only hardcore at times. I draw the line when I read a story and feel that the writer is taking an easy path where a hard one is called for. Nightcrawler was shown to be a mutant only in one issue but I believe that was ignored in a later issue. The writer needed him to be different, therefore he was different. The more comics went up in price the more quality I demanded of them and to me that meant paying at least lip service to continuity. Doesn't have to be a great patch job, but the effort at least has to be there.

Mark_S

[mikekerrIII]

You don't believe his business degree either?

SW

That reflects on your reading ability and your honesty

[Probably_not_a_Nurgling]

So if a newer fan watches something on Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes...and goes out and gets the older issues its based on because they like a character and the story they saw (since A:EMH is heavily based on some classic Marvel tales) then they pick up a new issue that involves retcons of that old issue they previously picked up...well in that case, if it makes them upset is their point more or less valid than the person that read the story when it was originally published?

You're still ignoring fans who came in through the newer issues of the comics themselves. They exist, you know. I'm one of them. Am I worth less as a fan? I don't think so. Pandering to fans is the worst thing a work of fiction can do. Why do you think endings to movies picked by test audiences always suck?

[stephen wacker]

When people say "my business" it usually refers to a business they own. Either you own Marvel comics or the conversation has switched to selling maternity bras.

Anonymous nonsense as usual.

My wife's company is "Belabumbum". You don't have to be so creepy about it. It's not as if it takes a detective to figure it out.

Sorry to burst your "anonymous bully" bubble. You gonna post more of my personal information?

SW

[Mark_S]

Today's Charles is yesterday's Charles. Other characters just finally woke up to the fact that he is and always has been a manipulative jackass who does horrible things, sometimes to people he's supposed to care about, "for the greater good."

Didn't read that way when I first read him. Imperious yes, somewhat manipulative. But with ethics. Retcon is a lazy way to write in my opinion.

Mark_S

[Clea]

And that gives us Prof X. as the bad guy.

Mark_S

Mark, while I agree that continuity is worth striving for and is a lot of fun when done well, it is hard to write characters in character when so many different writers have handled them.

After 50 years, you could make a continuity based case that Ellis was right about Cap condoning torture.

IMO, ensuring that characters don't veer too far off course in terms of their core characterization is one of the responsibilities of the editorial team. I don't expect writers (new or experienced) to have read every story with a particular character or team, and I don't believe that writers should be so tightly bound by continuity that they are unable to tell a good story today for fear of
contradicting a story that someone else wrote 30 years ago. OTOH, I do expect the editorial team to provide a measure of guidelines and some boundaries about the characters. If a writer and/or artist turns in something that is legitimately out of character, I would expect the editorial team to push it back and ask the writer to amend the story somehow. I don't know what role the editorial team plays at Marvel though.

There have been a lot of stories in the last few years that I didn't care for at all, hence not buying any Marvel titles for a while. I haven't seen the story/stories in which Captain America endorses (engages in?) torture but that sounds like a perfect example of the sort of thing that made me stop buying Marvel titles. To me, Cap is supposed to represent the best of old-fashioned American ideals, morality, and patriotism. He should represent the best tendencies of America, not it's worst. Put Cap in a story torturing someone and I guarantee you that I won't buy that story. But that's just my interpretation of this character. Cap does not belong to me, he belongs to Marvel (or Disney or whoever). It's up to them to tell the best and most profitable stories that they can with these characters. Ultimately readers will vote with their dollars. Some of the stories that I didn't personally like appear to have sold well so clearly there are a lot of readers out there for whom those plots and characterizations worked just fine. So maybe from the point of view of providing mass entertainment to a lot of readers and profitability to shareholders, the editorial PTB made a good call.

[YagamiFire]

You're still ignoring fans who came in through the newer issues of the comics themselves. They exist, you know. I'm one of them. Am I worth less as a fan? I don't think so. Pandering to fans is the worst thing a work of fiction can do. Why do you think endings to movies picked by test audiences always suck?

And you're still ignoring subjectivity.

The fan in my movie example is a "new" fan...so, again, would their irritation be valid if Iron Man 3 (in continuity with Iron Man 1 and 2) ignored or reversed vast portions of the previous movies?

If a book comes out that completely ignores or reverses something you like and it upsets you, will your own feelings be valid at that point?

[mikekerrIII]

How could someone be okay with buying zero Marvel comics?!?

It would be easy if you don't like them anymore. I never thought I would drop Iron Man and Spider-man but it was easyonce they stopped being characters I gave a damn about

[stephen wacker]

That reflects on your reading ability and your honesty

This needs another petition, Mike!

SW

[Mark_S]

So if a newer fan watches something on Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes...and goes out and gets the older issues its based on because they like a character and the story they saw (since A:EMH is heavily based on some classic Marvel tales) then they pick up a new issue that involves retcons of that old issue they previously picked up...well in that case, if it makes them upset is their point more or less valid than the person that read the story when it was originally published?

Or how about this, what is the cut off between "old" and "new"? The new Taskmaster series (which I enjoyed) retconned a huge portion of the old Taskmaster series (which I enjoyed)...neither is a particularly "old" story. If I am upset about the new series out-right ignoring stuff in the old story, is my irritation valid?

If you go and read the comic that the show is based on then there is no real expectation of continuity. If you have two series that contradict each other they may both be great stories but then where do you in the next story? Is that based on continuity A or continuity B? If you expect one type of story based on continuity A what is the guarentee that you will get it? At 3.99 and up the risk is huge.

Mark_S

[stephen wacker]

It would be easy if you don't like them anymore. I never thought I would drop Iron Man and Spider-man but it was easyonce they stopped being characters I gave a damn about

You did the right thing. I, for one, applaud your decision.

I asked you once if anything on Earth actually made you happy. You never responded sadly. Jazz maybe? It can't all be bad out there, can it?

Cheer up, buddy!

SW

[YagamiFire]

MacQ and folks like him have suggested new readers only "pretending" to like those comics.

According to fans Marvel was failing in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and 00s. They'll have to close this place down in another 50 years at this rate.

SW

Are you even reading the conversation going on between myself and Nurgling (who seems like quite an affable fellow, I must say)?