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  1. #571
    Neil Simon's Reservations
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelly_warrior_princess View Post
    sorry, but i don't own the inidividual issues of Daredevil. But the fact remains that the DD run with bendis was volume 2 (which is apparently incorrectly marked as the work of bendis & not Brubaker). Not that it matters as it end long before the end of Dark Avengers & the end of Dark Reign, which is the take away point.
    I couldn't give a flying hoot about your conclusions. You had a massive hole in your post which was trying to invalidate your entire premise. Little mistakes such as that one paint doubt on the validity of your entire argument. If you can't, with all your objectivity powers, get one simple year correct, how can any of us believe a word you have to say? If you mixed up writers, it certainly wouldn't help your position, either. You haven't backed up one opinion; you've just told us what your opinion was and told us to do the research.

    You need to present examples. And no, you haven't. You've pointed to concepts that cannot be backed up unless you link to a self serving website or a series of childish novels. You have told us that you think Bendis has gotten worse, without providing scenes for reference. Just spouting off useless rhetoric.

    Good day.

  2. #572
    Member theflyingfrogunderdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lascoden View Post
    I guess I'm missing the context, but what's so bad about that?
    The Avengers were trying to understand time, and that's when Cap said "time is a thing"...it just sounded very dumb. I can't post a pic of the panel now, but i could later.

  3. #573
    Spam Hunter Conn Seanery's Avatar
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    That's a bit misleading. Bucky Cap was processing information based on what Iron Man said.

    IRON MAN: "There's more evidence to support the idea that time and space are actual organisms. They are physical things. That's probably why someone like Kang can travel through them."

    CAPTAIN AMERICA: "Time is a thing."

    Whether that makes it more/less/equally stupid, I'll leave it for you to judge. Didn't bother me at the time.
    Conn Seanery
    CBR Administrator ~ Ron Swansonite ~ Eddard Stark's other bastard

    "Metaphors? I hate metaphors! That's why my favorite book is Moby Dick. No frou-frou symbolism, just a good simple tale about a man who hates an animal." ~Ron Swanson

  4. #574
    Senior Member Lascoden's Avatar
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    Hm, doesn't seem that bad to me. I've had to explain Quantum Mechanics and the Time-Space Continuum to people, and have gotten similar reactions.

  5. #575
    Member theflyingfrogunderdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conn Seanery View Post
    That's a bit misleading. Bucky Cap was processing information based on what Iron Man said.

    IRON MAN: "There's more evidence to support the idea that time and space are actual organisms. They are physical things. That's probably why someone like Kang can travel through them."

    CAPTAIN AMERICA: "Time is a thing."

    Whether that makes it more/less/equally stupid, I'll leave it for you to judge. Didn't bother me at the time.
    Oops...i didn't realize that was Bucky Cap in the issue. Must've missed the memo.

  6. #576
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    Quote Originally Posted by theflyingfrogunderdog View Post
    The Avengers were trying to understand time, and that's when Cap said "time is a thing"...it just sounded very dumb. I can't post a pic of the panel now, but i could later.
    You do realize how silly it is to use a SINGLE line as "proof" of the declining quality in comics over the past two or so years, right?

    I mean, it's not like "stupid lines" NEVER existed before 2 years ago.

  7. #577

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    Quote Originally Posted by theflyingfrogunderdog View Post
    Marvel comics have changed.

    I'm an older comics fan who seriously collected many Marvel titles during the 1980's and also grew up with lots and lots of Marvel comics during the 1970's, so i'm pretty familiar with Marvel's characters during that time period when Marvel's characters were really defined, i think.

    Back then, Thor talked like this:

    "Verily, i say thee nay! Tis not befitting of Marvel to alter the way i speak. Methinks Marvel has changed the god of thunder too much!"

    And the Thing talked like this:

    "Ya bozos wanna take on the FF, yer gonna have to stop the ever lovin', blue eyed Thing first!"

    Where did the characterization go? Where are the distinctive ways of speaking?

    The characters i've read in Marvel comics in more recent years, are not the same characters. I find that i can't relate to the modern versions of Thor and the Thing, which sadly, makes me want to pass on buying Marvel comics altogether. Right now, i'd much rather buy OMAC and Frankenstein Agent of S.H.A.D.E on the DC side, At least, those are characters i don't know historically, and can relate to in a new way. I was really liking OMAC until it's cancellation, and who knows how long Frankenstein will last, but at least, i was able to enjoy a few titles that really had the excitement that i remember was in comics of the 70's and 80's. Maybe DC's superhero titles have that excitement too, but i've only been collecting those two titles that are mostly outside the DC superhero universe. Anyway, my point is, i can't relate to Marvel's characters because Thor, the Thing and Hercules in particular, have changed too much. During the scene where the torch dies in the FF, i didn't even realize that it was Ben Grimm trying to keep Johnny from sacrificing himself until after i had read most of the issue. Then i realized that it was Ben, but he wasn't talking like i remember from when i collected the FF during the 1980's. I have a complete Byrne run of FF, so i know how John Byrne made the Thing talk back during his run on the title, and it's not the same at all. If Marvel wants their characters to talk and act differently now, then they should start a "New 52" like DC has done. At least, then, i would be able to accept the characters as they are, and say to myself, this is a different universe with different versions of the characters i grew up with and have fond memories of. I could accept that and would like a change up like DC has done.

    Another thing that has changed is the Marvel corner box (or circle) hasn't been there in years. To me, a Marvel comic isn't really a Marvel comic without that.

    And also, all the decompression has made single issue reads far less interesting than used to be the case. I guess, to fully take in a Marvel story now, buying the TPB would be the way to go.

    And what about "The world's greatest comic magazine" ? Fortunately, Marvel realized the mistake of changing that and returned it to the tops of the covers of the FF comics.

    If i was in charge of Marvel, i would:

    Change the above things mentioned, and create an environment that the fans could be a part of, like existed during the 1960's, when Marvel was more of a clubhouse than a corporation. The bullpen and the fans being closely acquainted in a way that the fans feel like they're a part of a club. I think that sort of inclusiveness should return, especially in this internet age, where websites can be very interactive. Marvel could do a lot with their website to make it more of an interactive atmosphere that has a clubhouse feel to it (if anyone saw Elvira's Movie Macabre on TV before it was cancelled, you know what i'm talking about. It had a feel of inclusiveness to it...like you were part of something that was like a clubhouse rather than a corporation). I think Marvel could do a lot more in that regard, and their website could be a much more fun place to visit every month if they went in that direction more. Anyway, those are my thoughts that i've had for some time, and thought i'd share here. Sorry, if i'm beating a dead horse. I don't mean to bash Marvel, i just think that they could do so much more to make the Marvel experience a fun one, not just in the comics, but also at the Marvel.com website, too.

    This question is directed towards older fans first, but anyone of any age is welcome to voice your opinion on it. Do you prefer the older characterizations of Thor and the Thing? Or do you prefer the less characterized versions that are in Marvel comics today?

    Have Marvel comics changed for the better or worse?
    I am thinking they went way down hill. I have not returned to read them again since that Red hulk story from just the most bad idea ever to grace the face of comics. How bad you say? well when characters stop acting like hero's and more like villains I wonder and when powers mean nothing to the creators of the story you have to wonder just what got into the writers minds.
    Story after story a charactor is not only changed but does something you scratch your head and think. thats not the hero I know who is this? Thor letting his father die , um no. Spiderman saying turning in names of people (not a chance in hell) the Silver Surfer losing to the hulk what kind of lame stuff did they think of that day?
    I am just waiting on some little guy to come out of hiding and poof he is the only hero that counts. Yeah that has to be it because the word hero has gotten lost in all this flashy mess so bad they forgot just what that means.
    If your going to reboot one reboot them all. One and all at the same time. On even ground. Give back the soul of the charactors and what makes them whom they are. Wow us with story line , bring us in with the fight and the battle for justice. I love the old Thor titles because he defined noble actions or spiderman because he took on bad guys bigger badder then himself and never gave up.
    The surfer was awesome because he could explore the cosmos and kicked some booty doing it.The hulk is a good character because he is the anger in all of us and he is just showing we can over come our own demons if we try hard anough. He is the unsung hero the one that saves the day even when you do not expect it.
    You ask has Marvel comics changed and the answer is and you know it is. YES. no story line can drag on that long and not become stagnant. There must be a restart after so long a return to the roots a reminder of where it all began and it also refreshes the world and brings it up to date. One does not run a story on forever and expect it all to take place in the same time frame and nothing be wrong.
    Spiderman ( I was a clone but I am no longer a clone , ben , scarlet spider , hmmmmmmm Oh yes that all took place before breakfast. ok guys come on hero yes , amazing yes , but stories have to be stories and once in a while there has to be a time when they look at it and think. Damn that one sucked.
    like when they replaced Thor and Thor Girl who was on drugs that day. Bringing the Norse gods to earth. wow really I looked at this and thought hmmmm why? why get rid of Odin? really his father grounded him and gave him council.
    Why not change Loki do something vastly different make Loki a team player hell it could work for a season?
    If you look at myth he and Thor shared many of a adventure. So much more then they ever tried to do
    , I tried to read the Red hulk and wow it was so bad it just over whelmed ever sense I had and i wanted to say. I WANT MY MONEY BACK. However since I liked the character I purchased a few of them hoping for change. It never came and I read that he killed the Silver Surfer in some lame way at that.
    I can say have they killed the current idea that is the marvel engine? Yes Yes and Hell yes. Can it be brought back? I am waiting on word of that and hoping they find out what that word hero means again. What it means when you read how Thor was a character older then our generation , when spiderman was friends with the xmen and when the marvel universe had hero's not mutants hunted by the government for being different.
    If they want to fix this and keep it fixed give every book a time frame. Every 5 years a reboot will take place. Because it gives them the power to do anything and they do not stick the characters with stagnated stories that go no place. It allows anything to take place and gives the creator power to step outside the box because what ever they choose to do. In five years it wont mater it all implodes and comes back to day one. It means nothing if they are not super hero's it means nothing if all they are is the bad guys and always fighting one another.
    The only thing I never understood about marvel is how the heros always fault other hero's. However this is not about gripe its about need for change. Bring back the hero , bring back the world where people remember what a hero stands for. I shake my head at whats said on the boards I begin to wonder if anybody knows any more what a hero is? I think the writers have forgotten and that is really sad.
    Last edited by jackson2171; 05-13-2012 at 12:50 AM.

  8. #578
    Master of Narrative kelly_warrior_princess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephen wacker View Post
    Heh...hanging on for dear life. I doubt even you believe this.
    Where did i say this exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by stephen wacker View Post
    You should totally start a comic company where you only listen to 13 people on a message board thread who like to complain.

    As a matter of fact why aren't you making comics and showing us how it's done?
    I already have a job thanks (also not in America). But just because i'm not working in comics doesn't mean i'm not producing written works. My written works just exist within a slightly different medium. I write fiction which has been showcased in print, but mainly i run a weekly DC Adventures game for 5 people. In fact i run events at conventions for larger audiences too (gaming cons, i've yet to attempt to run a game for a comic convention, but mainly due to the lack of conventions where i am).

  9. #579
    The curious one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conn Seanery View Post
    That's a bit misleading. Bucky Cap was processing information based on what Iron Man said.

    IRON MAN: "There's more evidence to support the idea that time and space are actual organisms. They are physical things. That's probably why someone like Kang can travel through them."

    CAPTAIN AMERICA: "Time is a thing."

    Whether that makes it more/less/equally stupid, I'll leave it for you to judge. Didn't bother me at the time.
    That sounds more like something Ben would say in response to Reed, not Cap to Tony.

    Mark_S

  10. #580
    Master of Narrative kelly_warrior_princess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    That sounds more like something Ben would say in response to Reed, not Cap to Tony.
    does it really matter. Its usually best to not pull apart poor dialogue. Especially when you have a character like Marvel Boy in Avengers who is just not being used at all, except as an exposition dump.

  11. #581

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    How easily available are comics these days?

    https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=e...LYeu8APku7SRCQ
    "Dan Slott was also unbelievably helpful during this period as he helped me formulate some of the ideas that eventually be used in "OMIT." Dan is a champ and an idea machine" - Joey Q

  12. #582
    Master of Narrative kelly_warrior_princess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Deery View Post
    How easily available are comics these days?

    https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=e...LYeu8APku7SRCQ
    um i'm not sure if you are aware of this, but those are web comics, they are predominately free & um, not to put to fine a point on it, but those are not sold by Marvel. Just a tiny little thing... HA! i joke, its not a tiny little thing, its a completely different thing that has exactly no bearing on the discussion in any way, shape, or form.

  13. #583
    The curious one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelly_warrior_princess View Post
    does it really matter. Its usually best to not pull apart poor dialogue. Especially when you have a character like Marvel Boy in Avengers who is just not being used at all, except as an exposition dump.
    But it goes to your point I believe. It's not only poor dialogue it is poor dialogue because it's coming from the wrong place. When you read it you realize that to Bendis no character is really different from any other character, they'll all talk the same way as the plot dictates. To have a good feeling for dialogue is to have everyone sound like their established characters and I haven't seen that in marvel in a long time. On a similiar point if the character needs to loose a fight to advance the story then that will happen. Tigra against the Hood is the best example but most recently She-Hulk letting herself be taken down by Rogue is another, or Magneto loosing against Iron Man. As a games master you know what superhero fights can be like and that some characters just can't beat other characters even with a freaky roll on a D20, but to most of the marvel writers and Bendis in particular if the plot needs the more powerful character to loose then they loose no matter what. That's poor writing in my opinion.


    Mark_S
    Last edited by Mark_S; 05-13-2012 at 05:58 AM.

  14. #584

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    Quote Originally Posted by kelly_warrior_princess View Post
    um i'm not sure if you are aware of this, but those are web comics, they are predominately free & um, not to put to fine a point on it, but those are not sold by Marvel. Just a tiny little thing... HA! i joke, its not a tiny little thing, its a completely different thing that has exactly no bearing on the discussion in any way, shape, or form.

    Quote Originally Posted by kelly_warrior_princess View Post
    Still doesn't address the initial problem: Why would a child seek out comics if he or she has nad no previous experience with comics? An even then, is a parent really going to help there child seek them out online & then allow the child access to a credit card, to purchase a 24 page funny book?

    In business you want as few obstacles between your product & your audience as is intelligently possible. Putting extra barriers in the way of children getting a thing, is the exact opposite of good business sense.

    Where could they get experience with a comic book?

    https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=e...LYeu8APku7SRCQ


    By the way you don't need a credit card to buy comics online. I buy stuff of comixology and never used a card. I buy a redeem code in shops and buy stuff that way.
    "Dan Slott was also unbelievably helpful during this period as he helped me formulate some of the ideas that eventually be used in "OMIT." Dan is a champ and an idea machine" - Joey Q

  15. #585
    Master of Narrative kelly_warrior_princess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    But it goes to your point I believe. It's not only poor dialogue it is poor dialogue because it's coming from the wrong place.
    Indeed it does, it comes under differentiated characterisation. But i've long ago learned not to pick apart bad dialogue. Once you start, you'll never stop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    When you read it you realize that to Bendis no character is really different from any other character, they'll all talk the same way as the plot dictates.
    An some don't speak at all unless they are exposition dumping, such as Marvel Boy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    To have a good feeling for dialogue is to have everyone sound like their established characters and I haven't seen that in marvel in a long time. On a similiar point if the character needs to loose a fight to advance the story then that will happen. Tigra against the Hood is the best example but most recently She-Hulk letting herself be taken down by Rogue is another, or Magneto loosing against Iron Man.
    Yeah, but isn't that just a pretty spot on description of AVX? Pointless story, executed in a pointless fashion. Honestly i can't even tell what they are fighting over anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    As a games master you know what superhero fights can be like and that some characters just can't beat other characters even with a freaky roll on a D20, but to most of the marvel writers and Bendis in particular if the plot needs the more powerful character to loose then they loose no matter what. That's poor writing in my opinion.
    Oh we still use it from time to time. Not to the point where we would cheat for the bad guy, but most certainly to do things like have villains escape capture. Its called GM's fiat: I try to use it very sparringly, when i use it at all.

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