Have Marvel comics changed for the better or worse?

[kelly_warrior_princess]

I would assume that it is stupid to complain about the same thing in a 100 post or a 100 thread people get most people don't like what Marvel is putting out but they still read even when acting like the don't.

Of course they continue to read. They continue to read because they are invested readers, hoping against hope that the book improves, or that they are going to put out a new book that not only has a higher level of technical quality, but also interests them. Kind of like how i hated the DC reboot, yet i got about 7 issues of about 10 books & read the first 7 issues of many more before if dropped the lot of them in disinterest. Because i was a committed DC fan. I did the same with the post Dark Reign Avnegers titles too, in the hopes that the quality would increase again. It didn't so i dropped my pull ists for both DC & Marvel.

That's like me complaining about how coca cola is to sweet but still drink it logic just seem to fall short on these forms.

Except thats about your own personal taste: This is about an objective drop in the technical quality of the product.

[Lady_Alternate]

The writing has declined... A lot.

Purely your opinion. Trying to pretend it's more than that is sweet, but it doesn't change anything.

[timeismoney]

Of course they continue to read. They continue to read because they are invested readers, hoping against hope that the book improves, or that they are going to put out a new book that not only has a higher level of technical quality, but also interests them. Kind of like how i hated the DC reboot, yet i got about 7 issues of about 10 books & read the first 7 issues of many more before if dropped the lot of them in disinterest. Because i was a committed DC fan. I did the same with the post Dark Reign Avnegers titles too, in the hopes that the quality would increase again. It didn't so i dropped my pull ists for both DC & Marvel.



Except thats about your own personal taste: This is about an objective drop in the technical quality of the product.

The same thing can be said for comic its your own personal taste just because you don't like a book, artist, or writer don't mean others feel the same way. But anyway go see Avengers it'll make you feel better about Marvel.

[kelly_warrior_princess]

Purely your opinion. Trying to pretend it's more than that is sweet, but it doesn't change anything.

No its not, its objective fact. Purely from a technical skill stand point many of the writers seem to just be phoning it in. I love Bendis & his work on Powers & pre-Dark Reign Avengers. However since the end of Dark Avengers his writing level has plummetted from a technical stand point. He's been using "talking heads" issues almost as an excuse for not getting any actual story done (an yet still barely moved forwards any interpersonal narrative), his characterization is way off from his usual high standard & his plot progression has become dismal (worse in Moon Knight then Avengers). The single exception in the last year was his point 1 issue of Avengers, with Ultron.

The same thing can be said for comic its your own personal taste just because you don't like a book, artist, or writer don't mean others feel the same way. But anyway go see Avengers it'll make you feel better about Marvel.

Sure. But there is a difference between personal taste & recognition of a drop in the technical talent of a writer.

As for watching Avengers i already have. I'm pretty sure i watched it before you did. Pro9bably a whole week before you did. Aussies got the move a week before US did. Our reward for also having got Thor a week before you did *shudders*

No amount of shirtless thor super happy fun time, could save that movie.

[matthewaos]

Do you have any particualr examples of things that Marvel have improved with time?

I have many but I do not wish to enter such an argument. However I do not believe that it's a horid comic book company, some things they do are good, some others don't. If you however find marvel horible, why don't you stop reading, and leave the marvel boards? Because whatever I do not like, I just don't care more.

[kelly_warrior_princess]

I have many but I do not wish to enter such an argument.

Alternative hypothesis is that you don't have anything that is demonstrably better now then it was say, 2 years ago.

However I do not believe that it's a horid comic book company, some things they do are good, some others don't. If you however find marvel horible, why don't you stop reading, and leave the marvel boards? Because whatever I do not like, I just don't care more.

I'm just going to quote my self up the page: "People want marvel not to suck, because they are committed fans of the universe: They complain because they care."

Just because marvels current product lines are kind of sucking, doesn't mean the committed fanbase doesn't want the marvel product line not to suck. We complain because we know Marvel can do better: Marvel was doing better less then 2 years ago. If we don't complain Marvel thinks they are doing a good job & eventually people stop reading & then marvel looks all shocked & says "well why didn't anyone tell us we were walking around with our skirt tucked into our underwear: We could have fixed it"

[wiski]

Double shipping, prices and low story page count.

[SubjectDelta]

I think has more to do with Marvel trying to play to reality entertainment crowd with this idea norwegians didnt speak shakespearian therefore Thor wouldnt which is a historically myopic and redundant argument and if any marvel staff is reading (whacker, greg pak, or even former marvel writer jms) i will easily dismantle that argument.

I also think that in their desperation to appeal to mythical new readers they are trying to dumb down characters for the sake of accesibility which is assinine givin that people arent going to take the time to access characters that are bland.

[kelly_warrior_princess]

I also think that in their desperation to appeal to mythical new readers they are trying to dumb down characters for the sake of accesibility which is assinine givin that people arent going to take the time to access characters that are bland.

An yet its the more silly aspects of characters that younger audiences best grasp onto... The simple mythology of the characters... The "With great power comes great responsibilities" & "verily no" kind of thing.

Those are the aspects that have always played best with a younger audience.

So it seems we agree on that.

[SubjectDelta]

Actually, remember when Thor talked completely normal? You know, when Stan and Jack created him, and he talked like he was Don Blake inside Thor's body?

Stan Lee probably did the Thous and Thees more than anybody, till Dan Jurgens, he is the one who set the precedent. Hell he had guys like the Silver Surfer and Mephiso speaking shakespearian.

http://www.tcj.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/thor2.jpg

[Doug_Brunell]

I'll say the stories Marvel has been producing the last decade have been better from a character and more realistic viewpoint than most of what I read in the 1970s and 1980s, but with few exceptions they are less fun to read. Maybe it's my age. Maybe it's my dislike of Wolverine being the official spokesperson of Marvel. I just had a better time with the comics back in those golden years. X-Men was more fun. Star Wars kept me on my monthly fix. Avengers was a joy. Now, the only book that I find consistently fun to read with good stories is Daredevil.

[YagamiFire]

I think, generally speaking, the direction of the industry has been refined down for the worse over a fairly long period of time. I don't think this is necessarily Marvel's fault any more than it's DC's any more than it's any identifiable group or individual. Sadly, any constructive criticism seems to be entirely ignored in favor of a "hater's gonna hate" attitude that is very counter-productive. I've always tried to be constructive in my criticisms on the board because I hate generalized whining...but, like I said, it seems like a pervasive "victim" attitude has taken hold of much of the industry where all criticism is dismissed in a sort of defense mechanism that consists of little more than "the most pointless whiners are the loudest". Because of that attitude it becomes easy to dismiss ALL vocal criticism as being pointless because "We can never do anything right!"...in other words, the victim plays off the fact that they are always being criticized so it is impossible for them to take any of it into consideration. As always, I can't speak with certainty...I can only relate what I have seen and how it seems to me.

As for the actual problems I've seen? Well, it is shocking how well-targeted towards kids many comic book properties are (Young Justice, Avengers: EMH, the Marvel movies, etc)...now, you'll notice in here I am giving both companies, and Marvel in particular, a huge compliment. These other media forms are astoundingly well done and many involve people also involved with the comics. Reviews for these properties also bare this attitude out...they are done really well and are very enjoyable. On the flipside then, it's shocking how poorly targeted towards kids the actual comics themselves are. The comic-reading market is much older, and seems targeted much older, than it should be.

Look at something like the new Avengers movie as it sets the tone for the Marvel movie-verse very well...it focuses on the good guys vs the bad guys, with occasional strife among the ranks of the heroes but they overcome that to work together to beat Loki and his team'o'evil. This is a very enjoyable straight-forward narrative that kids like where solid writing, good direction and pacing makes it enjoyable for those even older than kids. It's funny, it's got action, it's simple to understand and the characters are just deep enough to relate to them.

Now, compare that to what I consider a good "tone-setter" for the comics themselves...Civil War. Okay, well the simple narrative structure is out the window here. We have Tony vs Iron Man in actual combat instead of butting heads and they are fighting because of the socio-political ramifications of whether or not super heroes should be registered with the government to regulate their behavior and train them etc etc etc. This is where things go...awry. Kids do not relate to something like that. It is Iron Man and Cap fighting each other with people dying on both sides for reasons that are fuzzy at best. It is not for stakes like saving the world, its for something you'd hear debated on CSPAN. Now, with good writing, pacing, etc can it be enjoyed by the older crowd? Maybe, but I would say that all of that suffers for the lack of a simple, enjoyable super-hero genre story. It also suffers from decompression which ruins the pacing and, being a huge event, it will invariably suffer from bad writing in at least some of its corners if only from some people not being on the same page...of course, that also presumes the story itself is well written and the characters are relate-able which is not guaranteed because, again, you are deviating from the normal hero vs bad narrative which can force strange character contortions.

The core of that problem is, though, that there is nothing there for kids like there is in the Avengers movie. Why are they fighting Loki? He's a bad guy that does bad things. That is a perfectly reasonable answer for a child. Why are Iron Man & Cap fighting? Well you see, Iron Man thinks heroes need to be regulated so that it makes things safer but Captain America thinks that infringes on their rights as citizens. So...Iron Man is bad? No, he's trying to keep people safe. So...Captain America is bad? No, he's trying to keep people free. So...where are the bad guys? They're helping Iron Man. So...Iron Man is bad? No, they're being forced to help. Isn't forcing people to do things bad? Not in this case because they are trying to stop Captain America. Because he wants to keep people free? No because he's breaking the law. So...Captain America is bad? No because he's breaking laws that are bad...maybe. So...who is bad? No one is. Or maybe one is or the other. Or maybe neither. We'll go with neither. Neither is bad. Then...why are they fighting instead of working together? Because of deep-seated personal reasons that drive both characters motivation. Huh? Yeah I don't know either...

If you think that is too much of a simplification of a childs thinking, I would counter that it is not the thinking of a child, it's the tropes of the genre...a genre crafted for children. That the tropes mirror the thinking process of a child is not incidental nor is it accidental. That the most popular comic characters in the world ALL followed a "good guy vs bad guy" dynamic cannot be coincidental...and that they endured and thrived when they were written at a level for children but with a level of quality that made it also enjoyable by adults also cannot be a coincidence. At some point, I truly do believe that the writing for comics began to morph from "for kids" to "for fans"...and since fans were getting older (or the writers themselves were adults that were fans) this created a slow shift towards more "mature" comics...and that is not to sya "adult" comics but comics with an increased style of story sophistication. I think that this is, generally speaking, bad for superhero comics...they are not meant to be written under that level of "maturity"...the genre does not sustain the tone or the pace.

Again, these are just my opinions...though I will gladly expand on them or explain my reasoning.

[Imraith Nimphais]

I would not make a blanket statement either way.
Apart from F4/FF, XF and AoX, (the latter two of which I buy) Marvel is not producing anything of interest for me at this moment.
Do I think the majority of their current crop of creative/editorial talent is horrid? Yes. Does that make it "worse"? Not necessarily...that is just my personal opinion. I am fully aware that a vast majority of comic book readers are still die-hards and think that the company is in a much better position than it was ten/twenty years ago...that could be true for certain titles and characters and story direction but it is certainly not true for all.
If others are enjoying it and singing its praises...cool.
I am not.

[Joe Acro]

We had two topics running concurrently dealing with the potential problems of Marvel currently (particularly focused toward stories, characterization, and appealing to the masses), so I've merged them together.

Carry on.

[mikekerrIII]

No way. If Marvel is publishing it, it's horrible!!! How can you not see it it!

Grrrr...everything always used to better! Art/writing nowadays is too realistic /not realistic enough!! And don't get me started on editors who edit too much and too little!!

Cant you all agree that all fans secretly hate Marvel?!

SW

Since editors let Cap become a torturer too little has a lot of weight