Why can't Nolan's Batman be used in a JLA movie?

[Mr. Holmes]

On a sidenote, is anyone else still surprised at how much hate Nolan's films receive on these forums? By Batman fans no less.

Yeah I think it's just become a bandwagoning thing to do on these boards. Now days if something doesn't pander to fanboys, it sucks.

Why not? That just shows a lack of imagination. Anything can work in live action, as long as it is executed well. Avengers is enjoying critical acclaim and will be a box office monster. The idea that Batman wouldn't work in the same universe as Superman in live action is silly. It would work, just not with Nolan's take because Nolan's Batman wouldn't bring anything to the table.

Even Avengers is more grounded than the ideas in the post I'm replying to.

Yo I don't think you understand what "realistic" means at all. Like, according to your definition, anything less than a perfect magical Mary Sue / Gary Stu character is "realistic." Take babies, according to your definition babies are the most "realistic" people of all, they can't do anything except poop and cry. That's as real as it gets!

Let me blow your minds here: the Nolan movies are way more fantastical than the comics that they are based on. Let's unpack this quote:



Sure, compared to "the comics." But then, every movie is grounded compared to "the comics." Why didn't the movie have Thor turning into a frog? Where's Beta-Ray Bill? Why isn't Iron Man's armor stored in his bones? (I think this is a thing he does in the comics, I don't keep up with Iron Man) Why hasn't Hulk been shot off into space and become the warrior-king of his own planet? Ugh, why does Marvel have to make their movies so "realistic"???

Of course this is a stupid comparison, you can't compare a couple of movies to a decades-long publication history. You compare the stories in the movies to the stories they are based off. What stories are the Batman movies based off?

Batman Begins was clearly inspired by Year One, only it's way more fantastical. There wasn't a secret civilization-destroying ninja conspiracy in Year One, all Batman had to battle were corrupt cops and politicians. Yawn, how boring. The Dark Knight reused plot points from The Long Halloween. Only instead of Batman fumbling around and failing to solve a series of mob-related murders, he was running around Gotham trying to stop buildings from blowing up! The Joker's actions and philosophy in TDK derived from the Killing Joke, and oh boy, you want to talk about "realism"? Joker manages to stymie Batman by pulling his hood down over his eyes! How "realistic" is that! Boy oh boy, I'm sure glad the movie cut out such dull terrible boring "realism."

Year One. Long Halloween. Killing Joke. What a bunch of tedious "realistic" stories those were, right? Batman wasn't an Olympic level Sherlock Holmes genius martial artist in any of them! There's no way that any of those stories would ever fit into the comic cannon of super-fantastical Batman mythology, amirite?

Yup.

[Mr. Holmes]

As for Man of Steel, well Goyer and Nolan spearheaded the project and Zack Snyder is very adamant to keep the whole, "he's the only superhero in the world" rule.

Well it's possible they can transition him to be the only superhero in the world at the time, and he's just the very first. Not that I would be for this (I don't even care for the whole shared universe superhero thing in movies) but it's possible.

[Meadow]

Yeah I think it's just become a bandwagoning thing to do on these boards. Now days if something doesn't pander to fanboys, it sucks.

Yet most people have explained why they dislike the films. It's not necessarily fanboyism and bandwagoning if some people don't like a movie you like.

[Mr. Holmes]

Yet most people have explained why they dislike the films. It's not necessarily fanboyism and bandwagoning if some people don't like a movie you like.

Most people wish the Batman movies were less grounded "like the comics." Doesn't apply to everyone, but it's a prevalent trend here.

[Dr. Hurt]

Most people wish the Batman movies were less grounded "like the comics." Doesn't apply to everyone, but it's a prevalent trend here.

That's only natural because most people here read comics so they know there's much more to Batman than "dude in rubber suit running around in chicago fighting semi-realistic villains".

[Lord Bravery]

Yo I don't think you understand what "realistic" means at all. Like, according to your definition, anything less than a perfect magical Mary Sue / Gary Stu character is "realistic." Take babies, according to your definition babies are the most "realistic" people of all, they can't do anything except poop and cry. That's as real as it gets!

Let me blow your minds here: the Nolan movies are way more fantastical than the comics that they are based on. Let's unpack this quote:

Don't be silly. The films are not more fantastical than the comics. Do they have fantastical elements? Sure, Two Face walking around is a testament to that.

But still, Batman himself is watered down to fit into a world that is similar to ours. The Batman from the comics could not exist in the real world, it's as simple as that. You won't get a 30 something who is a master of hundreds of different martial arts, has PhD's coming out the ying yang. Who is as strong as an Olympic weight lifter but as agile as an Olympic gymnast. Who is a Houdini esque escape artist. Who is a Sherlock Holmes esque detective. Who still has time to run a multi billion dollar conglomerate. That is who Bruce Wayne is. And it's impossible for someone like that to exist in the real world. The world in which Nolan tries to have his movies similar to.

Now, no one is asking for a Mary Sue. But is Batman a Mary Sue in the comics? I don't think he is. Those elements are basically Batmans "superpowers". But he wasn't born with them, or given them, he worked hard for them. He travelled the world learning all this stuff.

I like Batman Begins, more than TDK, but it was the abridged Batman origin. A lot of cool and defining things were left out.

[Dr. Hurt]

Sure, compared to "the comics." But then, every movie is grounded compared to "the comics." Why didn't the movie have Thor turning into a frog? Where's Beta-Ray Bill? Why isn't Iron Man's armor stored in his bones? (I think this is a thing he does in the comics, I don't keep up with Iron Man) Why hasn't Hulk been shot off into space and become the warrior-king of his own planet? Ugh, why does Marvel have to make their movies so "realistic"???

Of course this is a stupid comparison, you can't compare a couple of movies to a decades-long publication history. You compare the stories in the movies to the stories they are based off. What stories are the Batman movies based off?

Batman Begins was clearly inspired by Year One, only it's way more fantastical. There wasn't a secret civilization-destroying ninja conspiracy in Year One, all Batman had to battle were corrupt cops and politicians. Yawn, how boring. The Dark Knight reused plot points from The Long Halloween. Only instead of Batman fumbling around and failing to solve a series of mob-related murders, he was running around Gotham trying to stop buildings from blowing up! The Joker's actions and philosophy in TDK derived from the Killing Joke, and oh boy, you want to talk about "realism"? Joker manages to stymie Batman by pulling his hood down over his eyes! How "realistic" is that! Boy oh boy, I'm sure glad the movie cut out such dull terrible boring "realism."

Year One. Long Halloween. Killing Joke. What a bunch of tedious "realistic" stories those were, right? Batman wasn't an Olympic level Sherlock Holmes genius martial artist in any of them! There's no way that any of those stories would ever fit into the comic cannon of super-fantastical Batman mythology, amirite?

The Marvel movies are a bit toned down as well, but not as much as Nolan's Batman is. Oh, and IM3 will be about Extremis, the armor that stores in his bones. How about that huh?

Again, it's not just about how Batman fights (which feels very grounded and heavy), but also the world itself. No fantastical villains, no other superheroes, Gotham is just a typical American city, etc. I understand Nolan's vision, i like it quite a bit, but after it's done i'd like something closer to the comics. While i didnt enjoy Burton's movies all that much, they were closer to the comics, both tonally and visually. Mostly the first film because the second was just Burton overload.

Also, what Lord Bravery says right above this post.

[Death by Mime]

So hey, how do you guys feel about Year One, Long Halloween, and the Killing Joke? All stories in which Batman is definitively less capable, less powerful, and less outright fantastic than he is in the Nolan movies? Are they unworthy of their places in Batman canon?

(Let me do you a favor and answer one for free: Long Halloween is terrible.)

[Lord Bravery]

So hey, how do you guys feel about Year One, Long Halloween, and the Killing Joke? All stories in which Batman is definitively less capable, less powerful, and less outright fantastic than he is in the Nolan movies? Are they unworthy of their places in Batman canon?

(Let me do you a favor and answer one for free: Long Halloween is terrible.)

No one is saying they are unworthy of their places in Batman canon. And it's quite apparent that Nolan was influenced by those movies. But I still look at those books and Nolan's films and see they are different. The tone is similar, with Year One especially. But Batman himself is still a watered down version of the guy in the comics, because the Batman of the comics wouldn't fit with Nolan's more grounded setting.

I mean, what detective work does Bruce do in the films? None, unless you count the bullet scanning thing, which you shouldn't because it's a stupid deus ex machina.

[Mr. Holmes]

When's the last time he did real detective work in the comics?

[Death by Mime]

No one is saying they are unworthy of their places in Batman canon. And it's quite apparent that Nolan was influenced by those movies. But I still look at those books and Nolan's films and see they are different. The tone is similar, with Year One especially. But Batman himself is still a watered down version of the guy in the comics, because the Batman of the comics wouldn't fit with Nolan's more grounded setting.

I mean, what detective work does Bruce do in the films? None, unless you count the bullet scanning thing, which you shouldn't because it's a stupid deus ex machina.

How? Why? What detective work does he do in any of the above stories??? What kind of arbitrary measure is that and where did you pull it out from? In the Killing Joke, Batman finds the Joker because Joker left him a flyer advertising where he is. What a contrivance that was! In TDK, Batman hijacks a cellphone sonar network to track him down! You keep claiming the comics are more fantastical, but you can't back it up!

[Dr. Hurt]

So hey, how do you guys feel about Year One, Long Halloween, and the Killing Joke? All stories in which Batman is definitively less capable, less powerful, and less outright fantastic than he is in the Nolan movies? Are they unworthy of their places in Batman canon?

No, of course not. They're fine. But there's a difference with Nolan in that those stories are just more realistic cases in batman's career and they dont have some Nolan shaking his finger and saying "NO, YOU CANT HAVE A ROBIN, YOU CANT BE FRIENDS WITH SUPERMAN, YOU CANT BE IN THE JL. IT'S JUST REAL LIFE THEMES AND POLITICS FOR YOU MISTER!"

Like, apart from the zombies, i dont think Snyder's Batman is all that unrealistic. And this same Batman is in the JL and so on. So let's go even further and make those owls normal people, not zombies, and make it even more realistic. This same batman can still be in the JL.

So why not reboot batman and create a more Gothamesque Gotham, give him a more comicbooky suit (the new 52 one without the trunks would be perfect even for the movies), and more unrealistic villains? Basically, a world that's more Arkham City, than Heat 2. And then let this same Batman be in the JL.

(Let me do you a favor and answer one for free: Long Halloween is terrible.)

I love you man! I thought i was the only one who hated that overrated book.

[Death by Mime]

No, of course not. They're fine. But there's a difference with Nolan in that those stories are just more realistic cases in batman's career and they dont have some Nolan shaking his finger and saying "NO, YOU CANT HAVE A ROBIN, YOU CANT BE FRIENDS WITH SUPERMAN, YOU CANT BE IN THE JL. IT'S JUST REAL LIFE THEMES AND POLITICS FOR YOU MISTER!"

Serious post, what is the difference between what Nolan is doing, and what Miller did? Or what Moore did? Or what Loeb did? Or what Snyder is doing? Christopher Nolan is focused on his own series, his own title, if you will, he is not responsible for the entirety of Batman. If Snyder says, 'no I'm not going to have Superman and the Justice League show up in my run, they might as well not exist,' is he suddenly a Bat-fascist?

Is a valid critique of a work of art "plays nice with others?" In that case read fanfiction. I want to see Batman join up with Harry Potter. I want to see him fight Darth Vader and defeat Sauron. There's a whole world of fiction out there for Batman to interact with, curse DC for shaking their fingers and saying "NO YOU CAN'T RANDOMLY CROSS OVER WITH ANY FICTIONAL WORK, IT'S JUST DC PROPERTIES FOR YOU MISTER!"

[Dr. Hurt]

Serious post, what is the difference between what Nolan is doing, and what Miller did? Or what Moore did? Or what Loeb did? Or what Snyder is doing? Christopher Nolan is focused on his own series, his own title, if you will, he is not responsible for the entirety of Batman. If Snyder says, 'no I'm not going to have Superman and the Justice League show up in my run, they might as well not exist,' is he suddenly a Bat-fascist?

Snyder might not choose to show the JL in his movie, but he can allow his Superman to appear in a JL movie.

I dont get the big deal here. Why do they NEED to go the "what if hero X existed in the real world and how would people react" with every one of them? Why cant Superman fight Luthor, Batman fight the Joker, and every 4-5 years they can team up in a JL movie and fight Darkseid? What's the big deal?

Is a valid critique of a work of art "plays nice with others?" In that case read fanfiction. I want to see Batman join up with Harry Potter. I want to see him fight Darth Vader and defeat Sauron. There's a whole world of fiction out there for Batman to interact with, curse DC for shaking their fingers and saying "NO YOU CAN'T RANDOMLY CROSS OVER WITH ANY FICTIONAL WORK, IT'S JUST DC PROPERTIES FOR YOU MISTER!"

You're overdoing it now. I'm not asking for Batman to team up with Harry Potter. I'm asking for the movies to give me what i get in my comics. And that's a super genious Batman who lives in a Gotham that looks like Gotham, and who occasionally fights with the JL along with his pals Superman, WW, etc. Why is it ok for comics, or animated series and movies to do that, but movies cant?

[Death by Mime]

What on earth are you talking about? Are you somehow under the impression that every single superhero movie ever made has been "what if they existed in the real world"??? Because that doesn't make any sense at all. Superhero movies that have followed that formula: Kick-Ass. Super. Hancock maybe? The League of Shadows does not exist in the real world, fyi!

Why can't your comics give you what you read in your comics? Why can't Year One give you a super genius Batman palling around with Superman? Why can't the Killing Joke give you that? Why hasn't Snyder's run given you that? You are putting every single superhero comic book ever published on one side, and every superhero movie on the other. Newsflash: one side is exponentially bigger than the other! Of course comics will always contain more than movies!