Avengers No-Prize thread - Unexplained continuity and characterization gaffes!

[Telos]

Over the past decade, Marvel have released a number of controversial storylines with questionable plot points and murky characterization. It's easy to pick holes in Chuck Austen's Avengers or Civil War, but it's harder to think of rational explanations for these problems that don't involve a total retooling of the story.

This is a general thread for pointing out some of the blatant mistakes in recent comics and then coming up with simple, off-panel justifications so these comics are at least somewhat enjoyable again. Doesn't matter which writer it was, doesn't matter if you liked the story or not - if there was an error, this is the thread to discuss it in.

Have a go! Present a problem and explain why it makes no sense. If you're having trouble thinking of an explanation for your problem, offer solutions to mistakes others have exposed. It's simple once you get into it!




Example - The Lethal Legion in Avengers: X-Sanction #1
Radioactive Man was a member of the Thunderbolts between 2005 and 2009. In Thunderbolts, he attempted to reform his villainous ways and become a hero, often showing a just streak in comparison to characters like Norman Osborn or Bullseye. After being deported to China, he joined the People's Defence Force, a national Chinese superteam, and appeared in Mighty Avengers. The last we readers knew of him, he had successfully reformed and was enjoying his life as a respected Chinese superhero in his home country, until...



...he appeared as a member of the Lethal Legion in Avengers: X-Sanction #1, in a throwaway fight sequence that served only to set the scene and get the plot moving. He had no lines. When did he move back to America and become a villain? Why? It didn't make any sense. Additional problems included that Grim Reaper was supposed to be dead, and Whirlwind was wearing the costume he had in the 60s, rather than his usual up-to-date version. They put up almost no fight and get taken out by the Avengers within the first five or so pages.

The fan explanation? Aside from the Living Laser, this roster of the Lethal Legion consisted entirely of imposters, masquerading as famous villains (as a sign of respect, or to draw on their reputations, whatever). This explanation works because there's nothing in the comic to contradict it, and it doesn't really impact the story itself. These villains are younger up-and-comers who haven't fought the Avengers before and were inadequately prepared for the fight. Until something else says otherwise, Radioactive Man is still a hero in China, Grim Reaper is dead and Whirlwind is currently allied with Mandarin and Ezekiel Stane.

[Lady_Alternate]

I shall come up with something later. Your issue, explanation and solution were better than mine for that particular doozy, being "Loeb did it", "#@$& you Loeb" and "booze, to forget" respectively.

[One More Day]

I shall come up with something later. Your issue, explanation and solution were better than mine for that particular doozy, being "Loeb did it", "#@$& you Loeb" and "booze, to forget" respectively.

What's wrong with Jeph Loeb? he wrote countless great stories, Spider-Man: Blue, and the Long Halloween amongst them

[Telos]

Avengers: The Children's Crusade is absolutely ripe with continuity/characterization problems if anybody wants to tackle that. Think about:

- Doctor Doom should be with the FF, and Kristoff Vernard should be Monarch of Latveria
- Iron Man's wearing incorrect armor
- Wonder Man should be in Avengers custody at this point, as this takes place after he formed the Revengers

Speaking of Wonder Man and the Revengers, most of their motivations for attacking the Avengers were badly thought out and ignored previous continuity. That needs to be No-Prized as well.

I shall come up with something later. Your issue, explanation and solution were better than mine for that particular doozy, being "Loeb did it", "#@$& you Loeb" and "booze, to forget" respectively.

Hahaha, thanks. To be fair, I think somebody else came up with it in one of the X-Sanction preview threads, but they were only referring to Radioactive Man rather than the whole team.

What's wrong with Jeph Loeb? he wrote countless great stories, Spider-Man: Blue, and the Long Halloween amongst them

Loeb can be a great writer at times - I liked Fallen Son: The Death of Captain America. However, he's also known for simplistic plots, ignoring continuity (his Hulk run) and gratuitous killing off of characters (Ultimatum).

But this thread isn't for debating about Loeb, Bendis, Millar, Austen or any other writers who are arguably bad. It's about thinking of solutions to problems in their stories.

[Exo]

- Iron Man's wearing incorrect armor

That's easy, there are two Starks running around. One with all of his memories intact (and with no arc reactor stuck to his chest) and one without.

[Lord Bravery]

What's wrong with Jeph Loeb? he wrote countless great stories, Spider-Man: Blue, and the Long Halloween amongst them

Loeb hasn't written a decent comic in about 10 years, that's what is wrong with him.

[One More Day]

Loeb hasn't written a decent comic in about 10 years, that's what is wrong with him.

Spider-Man:Blue was recent you didn't like that story?

[yanapryde]

Avengers: The Children's Crusade is absolutely ripe with continuity/characterization problems if anybody wants to tackle that. Think about:

- Doctor Doom should be with the FF, and Kristoff Vernard should be Monarch of Latveria
- Iron Man's wearing incorrect armor
- Wonder Man should be in Avengers custody at this point, as this takes place after he formed the Revengers

.

It was my understanding that the final issue of Children's Crusade explained the continuity issue. When they were watching tv updates on all the crazy things that happened AFTER the Crusade.
As for the aesthetics (Stark's suit, Cap's uniform) -- THAT has been explained ad naseum both on forums, AND in the first or second issue --in the intro-page.

[Telos]

Please stay on topic, everyone. If you want to talk about whether or not Loeb is a bad writer, the Controversial Avengers Opinions thread is open.

It was my understanding that the final issue of Children's Crusade explained the continuity issue. When they were watching tv updates on all the crazy things that happened AFTER the Crusade.

The final issue showed where it was supposed to take place, but there were still continuity problems.

• New Avengers Annual #1 and Avengers Annual #1 both took place before Fear Itself. Wonder Man created the Revengers team, fought the Avengers, and eventually got captured by Iron Man's new gizmo. In The Children's Crusade, which occurs after Fear Itself, Wonder Man is for some reason free and, although he disapproves of the Avengers, continues to work with them. Why?
  
• A:CC takes place after Fear Itself, and Johnny is shown returning in the TV scene at the end. Doctor Doom joined the Future Foundation before Fear Itself (Kristoff replacing him as Monarch of Latveria), and was still a member when Johnny returned. So why is Doctor Doom ruling Latveria in A:CC? Do the FF not know or care that he killed Cassie Lang?

As for the aesthetics (Stark's suit, Cap's uniform) -- THAT has been explained ad naseum both on forums, AND in the first or second issue --in the intro-page.

What was wrong with Cap's uniform? The intro page explained why there were errors, but it doesn't make the errors nonexistent. Plus, that page wasn't reprinted in the hardcover edition.

Tony's armor may only be an artistic change, but I'm a bit of a continuity nut so it still affects my enjoyment of the story. It's not as simple as putting on the wrong uniform in a rush to get out of Avengers Mansion - the Bleeding Edge is stored inside his bones. Feel free to copy-paste one of the explanations from one of the other threads.

[yanapryde]

How do we know it takes place after Fear Itself...?

And as for the aesthetics....its a simple thing: The artist flubbed, due to when the book was being made. They apologized. Fans are unforgiving, it seems.

[Nomads1]

I had an explanation for why Jan had slept with Hawkeye during Austen's run. Her using Pym particles to grow had left her mentally unbalanced, the same effect it once had on Hank himself. As for why Hawkeye turned his back on Hank, ignoring years of carachterization and his essential part in Pym's return to greatness, and screwed his friend's wife, I have nothing, unless it is: He was a Skrull.

Peace

[Telos]

How do we know it takes place after Fear Itself...?

Thor's absence, Steve as Captain America, Tom Brevoort telling us multiple times that it's after Fear Itself.

And as for the aesthetics....its a simple thing: The artist flubbed, due to when the book was being made. They apologized. Fans are unforgiving, it seems.

I'm sorry, but "the artist flubbed" is not an in-comic explanation. You're missing the point of this thread, which is to take mistakes like that, and think of in-story ways to solve those problems.

I had an explanation for why Jan had slept with Hawkeye during Austen's run. Her using Pym particles to grow had left her mentally unbalanced, the same effect it once had on Hank himself. As for why Hawkeye turned his back on Hank, ignoring years of carachterization and his essential part in Pym's return to greatness, and screwed his friend's wife, I have nothing, unless it is: He was a Skrull.

That's pretty good!

My explanation was that Scarlet Witch's insanity and reality warping were causing her teammates to act irrationally. It's a catch-all explanation that works for most of Austen's run. You know how Tony Stark felt drunk at the U.N. conference? Same thing. I use that explanation for Hawkeye's stupidity when his quiver caught fire, too.

Since then, Avengers: The Children's Crusade has revealed that Scarlet Witch's insanity and sudden power upgrade were caused by her being possessed by a cosmic entity called the Life Force. The explanation still works, but it was the Life Force messing with things, not Wanda.

[yanapryde]

My bad. My blunders. Carry on, Detectives.

[Panic]

I had an explanation for why Jan had slept with Hawkeye during Austen's run. Her using Pym particles to grow had left her mentally unbalanced, the same effect it once had on Hank himself. As for why Hawkeye turned his back on Hank, ignoring years of carachterization and his essential part in Pym's return to greatness, and screwed his friend's wife, I have nothing, unless it is: He was a Skrull.

Peace

Maybe you could chalk it up to Pym Particles again. Perhaps they remained in Clint since his Goliath days and turned toxic over time. That might explain his taking advantage of Wanda's amnesiac state to get her into bed, despite that it's uncomfortably similar to what the Phantom Rider did to Mockingbird.

[Lady_Alternate]

Maybe you could chalk it up to Pym Particles again. Perhaps they remained in Clint since his Goliath days and turned toxic over time. That might explain his taking advantage of Wanda's amnesiac state to get her into bed, despite that it's uncomfortably similar to what the Phantom Rider did to Mockingbird.

We can chalk Wandabot up to Clint being a dick. It was hardly out of character for him.