I thought Wolverine didn't want to endanger children

[ExodusCloak]

It's a fine line though. Wait one day more and he might not get a second shot at her. Kill helpless baby Hitler now before he grows up and comes into power. Maybe Wolverine was jumping the gun since we don't know if Hope is really the Phoenix's intended host. Then again, maybe he knew just enough to make that call when it needed to be made. Everybody else's hesitation could cost them.

Once upon a time Bishop thought the same.

[cookepuss]

But we are not talking about aa dog,

Aren't we? The phoenix force is primal and often prone to instinctual behavior. Its hosts, once in possession of the force, tend to behave similarly. Not even almighty Jean Grey's mind could wrangle it in. The Phoenix Force is the X-Men's Galactus, but without any of that listening to reason bs.

in this case even if Logan muders hope, it will not stop the PF from taking her as a host anyway

We don't know. Phoenix did create a host body to replace the near dead Jean. It could do that ad infinitum. But that's assuming that the connection between Hope and the PF is only tenuous and fragile right now. If Hope is full on possessed, even though the raptor isn't here yet, we do know that killing the host tends to drive the PF from its body, thus averting disaster. Claremont/Byrne's run is the precedent for that.

she could simply be mimicking it since that is her power

Certainly a possibility. HOWEVER, we've yet to see whether or not her power is limited to mutant mimicking or whether or not she can do non-mutants. And, if she can do non-mutants, can she also mimic primal cosmic beings? If so, she'd be a beast up against Galactus or any of the other cosmic big-wigs. Whole lot of "ifs" here.

I don't think Wolverine has thought past the "Kill it now" stage

Clearly not, but there's no proof that it'd choose any other host at this point. More over, we're guessing that it's even headed for any x-people. Like you said, Hope could just be a bad-ass cosmic-level mimic. Again, too many variables. Can't blame Wolverine for going with his gut, as its served him well over the years. (Y'know. Except for that time when he killed all his kids. )

[cookepuss]

Once upon a time Bishop thought the same.

Yeah, but I think that Logan has a little more evidence than, "This baby might be the evil redhead from my future." More and more signs are pointing to a Hope/Phoenix connection right now. Some pretty tangible stuff. Bishop was running on conjecture and fumes. Also, remember when he was so convinced that Gambit was the x-traitor? Remember how well THAT panned out? Bishop's a lousy cop. His judgement has always been questionable. He's more Pink Panther than Sherlock Holmes.

[Jota]

Posted this in another thread yesterday, but I think it belongs in this thread as well:

Wolverine is TOTALLY a traitor. You may think he has a point, but you show up on the X-Men's front door with the Avengers, and you're a traitor.

The X-Men... who took in an short, hairy, ugly canadian with no memory and issues socializing and made him part of the family.

He spent years trying to f$%K Scott's girlfriend, then wife, and Scott still let him stick around and be part of the team. All of a sudden he has a change of heart BECAUSE HE KILLED HIS OWN CHILDREN and he starts judging everyone for having become too much like him. He implies Scott is wrong for putting kids in danger and takes half the team to NY... where he names a school after Scott's dead wife!!!!

Then, after having done all of this to Scott over the years, and then judged him for having allegedly put kids in danger, Wolverine shows up with an invading force at the direction of a hostile government AND TRIES TO MURDER A KID!!!!!!!!!!!!! AFTER SAYING SCOTT WAS WRONG FOR JEOPARDIZING KIDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wolverine is a complete and utter traitor, and has basically been horrible to Scott since the day he met him. Wolverine is not the hero of this tale.

Summers must have the patience of a saint to not have strapped this guy down and slayed all the meat off his bones with optic blasts.

Jesus Christ! It's bad enough to post that mountain of crap one time but twice?!!

[ExodusCloak]

Yeah, but I think that Logan has a little more evidence than, "This baby might be the evil redhead from my future." More and more signs are pointing to a Hope/Phoenix connection right now. Some pretty tangible stuff. Bishop was running on conjecture and fumes. Also, remember when he was so convinced that Gambit was the x-traitor? Remember how well THAT panned out? Bishop's a lousy cop. His judgement has always been questionable. He's more Pink Panther than Sherlock Holmes.

Bishop was running on evidence that is his timeline.

[DexterSinister]

The baby Hitler is not a good example though. First Hope is not a baby and Wolverine protected her as a baby. Second, Wolverine is protecting and teaching Evan ie Apocalypse. So I don't think this is a matter of Wolvy taking the easy way out. I think this is a matter of his fear of what the PF might do and not of what Hope the individual might do. If it was just Hope the individual then it might be different. Although again, I think having said that, he has still acted prematurely.

If both where raised in a positive environment where tolerance towards others was taught then that should pay off when they both come into power, the negative treatment towards the phoenix host has always come back to bite them in the ass and count your lucky stars she wasn't raised by old Magneto.

[cookepuss]

Bishop was running on evidence that is his timeline.

Because, as we all know, the timestream is static and everything is predetermined. How many times have the X-Men already foiled the Days of Future Past timeline now? Bishop is, more likely than not, from a splinter timeline. It's impossible for every potential future came to fruition. Bishop has certainly been here long enough to even inadvertently alter his future. Bishop wasn't even supposed to be here anyway, at least as far as he knows.

That brings up another point. As a kid, Bishop's knowledge of the past was strictly limited to the stories that his grandmother told him. That's pretty sketchy "evidence".

More than that, at least based on what we've seen in the ongoings and minis, his "visual confirmation" is also sketchy. The evil ginger from the future was certainly years older than Hope is now, making an ID pretty difficult. That Bishop decided to hunt and kill a decidedly a generic looking baby doesn't really support his claims of sanity. He might as well have been killing any random kid. Bishop's initial targeting of baby Hope was full-on crazy.

Marvel has always toyed with us, suggesting that she MIGHT one day be evil. However, they also toyed with us regarding the 3rd Summers brother, the X-traitor, Logan's history, and a myriad other things. As long as they keep us coming back to read more. Nothing's written in stone and writers change all of the time.

[jarrod]

Bishop was running on evidence that is his timeline.

Same thing with the X-Traitor. Turned out he was waaaaaay off on that one (it was Xavier, not Gambit).

[cookepuss]

If both where raised in a positive environment where tolerance towards others was taught then that should pay off when they both come into power, the negative treatment towards the phoenix host has always come back to bite them in the ass and count your lucky stars she wasn't raised by old Magneto.

Again, nature VS nurture is a tricky thing. You can have good people who come from really bad upbringings and really bad people who come from well adjusted homes. Sometimes, people rise above their circumstances. Other times, no amount of nurturing can change that something is fundamentally wrong. Sometimes, they're just born that way and biology has the final word.

[ExodusCloak]

Because, as we all know, the timestream is static and everything is predetermined. How many times have the X-Men already foiled the Days of Future Past timeline now? Bishop is, more likely than not, from a splinter timeline. It's impossible for every potential future came to fruition. Bishop has certainly been here long enough to even inadvertently alter his future. Bishop wasn't even supposed to be here anyway, at least as far as he knows.

That brings up another point. As a kid, Bishop's knowledge of the past was strictly limited to the stories that his grandmother told him. That's pretty sketchy "evidence".

More than that, at least based on what we've seen in the ongoings and minis, his "visual confirmation" is also sketchy. The evil ginger from the future was certainly years older than Hope is now, making an ID pretty difficult. That Bishop decided to hunt and kill a decidedly a generic looking baby doesn't really support his claims of sanity. He might as well have been killing any random kid. Bishop's initial targeting of baby Hope was full-on crazy.

Marvel has always toyed with us, suggesting that she MIGHT one day be evil. However, they also toyed with us regarding the 3rd Summers brother, the X-traitor, Logan's history, and a myriad other things. As long as they keep us coming back to read more. Nothing's written in stone and writers change all of the time.

The point I'm trying to make is that Wolverine's "evidence" that Hope is going to go Dark Phoenix is as concrete/flimsy as Bishops evidence that Hope is going to bring about his timeline. In regards to you saying Wolverine has more evidence, no not really. She's manifesting the raptor that's not an indication that she's evil. Bishop knew baby Hope was going to be the first mutant born after M-day so it wasn't a problem getting an ID.

[cookepuss]

Same thing with the X-Traitor. Turned out he was waaaaaay off on that one (it was Xavier, not Gambit).

And not even, if the Onslaught Marvel Universe retcon is to be believed. (How badly did Marvel f*** that one up, retconning Dark Xavier into some hybrid, independent being.)

[DexterSinister]

Again, nature VS nurture is a tricky thing.

Not in the Marvel universe, if you have a good bone structure it's nurture but if you have a face like a sack of potatoes it's nature (sometimes a good does of nurture can win the angry potato faces over).

[cookepuss]

The point I'm trying to make is that Wolverine's "evidence" that Hope is going to go Dark Phoenix is as concrete/flimsy as Bishops evidence that Hope is going to bring about his timeline.

Nobody has any concrete info. I won't dispute that. However, even Stevie Wonder can see that it's not looking too good for Hope right now. The existing evidence may be small and ultimately add up to a whole not of nothing. However it IS kinda stacking up atm. Bishop's intel was based on vague recollection and spotty visual confirmation; never mind the fact he was condemning a baby, most of which are pretty generic looking.

In regards to you saying Wolverine has more evidence, no not really. She's manifesting the raptor that's not an indication that she's evil.

That she's evil? No. That she might be the PF host? Possibly. The thing about the PF being vicious just happens to do more with its past behavior. So, if Hoped does turn out to be host, the odds of her being totally benign are a little less than her being chaotic.

Bishop new baby Hope was going to be the first mutant born after M-day so it wasn't a problem getting an ID.

TOTALLY hard to get the ID. Bishop's intel on the past was borderline. It was total Terminator-level evidence; bits and pieces here and there, but never the full picture. How do we know that recorded history, oral at that, was the same as what really occurred? Hearsay evidence at best.

[BigDtown]

The Phoenix that is headed towards Hope is destroying entire planets RIGHT NOW. Not in some possible future timeline, (like in Bishop's reasoning), but right now in the present. Could Wolverine still be wrong? Of course. But he has a hell of a lot more to go on than Bishop did.


(Also, he hasn't killed a billion people over it)

[cookepuss]

Not in the Marvel universe, if you have a good bone structure it's nurture but if you have a face like a sack of potatoes it's nature (sometimes a good does of nurture can win the angry potato faces over).

Good bone structure is nurture? I've known people to undergo some pretty intense facial surgery. You can buy good bone structure. Doesn't necessarily hide the mountain of crazy underneath though.

Some characters like Magneto turned out bad because of circumstances. Others, like Creed, enjoy the pain & bloodshed and are straight up crazy, even as a kid. Still, others like Loki are always borderline. What's always been cool about the MU is that their characters were never B&W. The whole black hat VS white hat thing of classic DC really wasn't what Marvel did, at least not as a firm rule. Their characters are more complex than that.